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Message started by Veritas on 09/18/06 at 14:59:19

Title: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Veritas on 09/18/06 at 14:59:19

I know I was hijacking a brass plug thread but I'm so darn frustrated right now I had to start a new thread! >:(

I don't know if they used super glue or what the hell they did but I can not get the carb screws off for the life of me. Even one I got off with an impact driver wont come back off!

I tried impact driver, regular screw driver and hammer, vice grips. Nothing is moving this screw! I have no idea how they could get it so tight without stipiipng the screw. Looks like they just poured molten brass into the hole and let it set.

I worked on ONE screw for over an hour with no progress. Now, I have 2 stripped screws, one that will come out easy, and one head so mutilated, you can't tell it was a screw head.

Short of drilling the suckers out, what the hell can I do!?

ps. Tried pulling the carb off but realized the battery box was in teh way. They put this bike together like a freakin' jigsaw puzzle. Everything has to go together in the right order or it wont work! :o

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Probert31 on 09/18/06 at 15:15:10

Had the same problem this yesterday. Got mine off with vice grips. The real pain was the screws in the needla assembly. Be very careful with those. Do you have any friction grease? Might try that. My neighbor tried to get the little ones out with it but couldn't. When I got home and put the needle nose pliers to it, it came out. Do you happen to know if the needle should slide or be stationary after the mod?

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Veritas on 09/18/06 at 15:33:35

I've been trying the vice grips. I had a good grip on the screw bit it would not turn with all my strength. I'm sorry, I don't know if it is suposed to move. I think it is supposed to. But don't take my word for it, I can't even get the carb apart!

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Probert31 on 09/18/06 at 15:36:42

Sometimes if you try and tighten the screw a little it makes it easier to come out. Thanks for your input on the needle.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by vroom1776 on 09/18/06 at 16:32:30

yes, needle should move.

2nd the idea of tightening to break the "lock."

V, do you have a welder? Could try welding a longer screw to it to use as a lever arm. Then it's on to the screw extractor kit.

May also want to try some PB Blaster. It's a penetrating fluid.

Also the tips n tricks thread (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1101159893;start=0#3).

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Brewbrother on 09/18/06 at 16:37:05

I removed the carb screws with a set of needle nosed vice grips. Took maybe 5 minutes. Not to be a smart a$$ but righy tighty lefty loosey. as for the battery box, if you loosen the carb boots the carb can be shifted up or down as you rotate the carb without the carb cap to facilitate rejetting. have a beer or three. makes wrenching easier.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Veritas on 09/18/06 at 18:21:33

No, no welder. I guess I'll try the penetrating fluid.

I've tried the vice grips to no avail. Yeah, I've been going lefty loosey. I don't feel too comfortable using the impact driver again cause I keep shoving the carb closer and closer towards the battery box. I could get to all the screws easy. Just removed the boot between the carb and airbox(?).

Unfortunately, I don't drink. However... I may just start cause of this. Wasted a beautiful day with the tank on the ground. Should have been riding. ::)

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Brewbrother on 09/18/06 at 18:58:06

Veritas wrote:

start drilling screws. Its a last resort.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Reelthing on 09/18/06 at 19:51:15

Sears has some new really fine easy outs that have a drill on one end and the easy out on the other - you can drill almost from the top of the screw through the bottom - used in a proper drill like a 2 speed dewalt in low and just barely touch the trigger it will pop them loose.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Veritas on 09/18/06 at 20:53:00

easy out? what is it?

Oh, and I don't have a proper drill. I have a dremel with drill bits. Will that be strong enough to do the job? I also have a dinky little 6v black&decker mom-drill. You know the kind thats used just to hang pictures in the dining room?

Just started wrenching. I have "decent" hand tools but almost no real power tools.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Reelthing on 09/19/06 at 05:41:55

Well, an easyout is a http://s7.sears.com/is/image/Sears/00952155000?rgn=0,0,640,640&scl=2.56&fmt=jpeg

guess sears calls it a bolt out here if the link works

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Hand+Tools%2C+General+Purpose&pid=00952155000

the dremel is a excellent tool for any garage but this is not the job for it as it develops very high rpms(30k) and very little torque - a low speed high torque drill is what you need to break them loose, like a 14-18v these shifted to low will dang near flyout of your hand if they bind up - sorry might want to keep the 6v power screw driver in the box it came in and put it at the top of the closet.

The other deal is to match the phillps head size to right bit size - granted these carb screws seem to have some serious thread locker on them and even with the right tools and technique it's difficult to get all 8 out clean - but say the little screws at the bottom of the slide are tiny little things but they are a #1 phillips which is pretty good size driver compared to the screw - but if you use a phillips #0 bit on those screws there's very high odds you'll strip them out. I can't remember if the carb case screws are #2 or #3 as I pitched them in the trash

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Ed_L. on 09/19/06 at 06:04:54

Try filing flat spots on the sides of the screw heads. Then use a pair of small vice grips to grab them with. Drilling the heads off is the other way to go.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Veritas on 09/19/06 at 08:23:32

Heh, yeah. The 6v stays hidden unless I, or my mom (heart condition) needs to do something small. I guess I should go invest in a good drill and some quality bits. I think I'm gonna just drill the sucker out.

But, it's 80deg and sunny right now, so I'm gonna spend some quality time of a different persuasion with my baby. We're going for a ride! I'll take her apart next month when she's sitting in my room...

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Savage_Rob on 09/19/06 at 10:55:21

It's nice that a carb is a small item and you can do this. Take it off the bike and put it in the freezer for several hours. Then try it. Freezing causes the metal of the both the carb and the screws to contract. I've done this before and it works.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Scottwerty on 09/19/06 at 13:51:12

I must be the only one who didn't have a problem with these screws. I used a phillips socket for my rachet wrench did it slow and took all 8 screws out in 3 minutes. Course, the screws can't already be mangled for this to work. replaced those suckers with ss allens

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Reelthing on 09/19/06 at 14:18:57

Got them out on 2 carbs and burgered up one - and yes throw the phillips screws in da trash! (except for the littleones in the slide)

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Veritas on 09/19/06 at 14:29:40

My bike is a 2005. The screws were perfect. Keyword: were :o Not anymore! I did a good job of making them look like they werent even screws!

I think I'm gonna grind the screws down and try to thread them down through the bottom of the holes. Think that'll work? I hope so!

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by vroom1776 on 09/19/06 at 14:37:20

V,
you'll have to cut grooves in the tops of the screws for that to work... and if you mess up... you may "never" get the carb open!

really, just go buy a screw extractor kit and a drill! should cost less than $40 if you go cheap. And you will use them again!

V

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Guido on 09/19/06 at 16:44:51

Mine is an 05 also. Screws on the bottom came out okay, but one of the top ones had to be drilled.
Go to Sears and get the screw extractor set #952315.
Drill a pilot hole in the top of the screw without touching the threads, and then "tap" the appropriate extractor in the hole with a hammer. When you think it's in there firmly take a small adjustable wrench "cresent wrench" to it and get that baby out of there!!!
When you get them all out, throw those screws away and go to ACE Hardware and buy some of those stainless steel allens!!

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Reelthing on 09/19/06 at 18:10:57

Veritas wrote:

doubt it - if they have thread lock on them and these sure felt like it - pretty good pop when they came loose

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Veritas on 09/19/06 at 22:58:19

So the only option here is drill and easyout...?

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by azjay on 09/20/06 at 07:06:08

as they are buggered up now, you can take your dremel and cut a slot across them, and get another shot at pulling them with a screwdriver. however, i think i'd ad some penetrating oil, vise grips to the screwdriver handle, tapping the screwdriver handle with a hammer while twisting, or the freezer trick, to the process, as what you've been doing hasn't been working, you gotta try something different. quite often, many more things must be taken apart to get to the root of the mechanical repair, and can be a challenge to ones patience, which is why not everyone does this type of work. it sounds like you have the right idea, take a break when frustration sets in. good luck, keep us posted.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Stimpy on 09/22/06 at 12:38:33

What about going really LOW TECH?

Metal EXPANDS with heat, but CONTRACTS when cold.

What about puting the whole thing in the freezer for an hout or 2 (like azjay said) and then spaying it with wd40 (before and after) and trying with the vice grips and/or drill again?

Yeah, yeah, then the WHOLE thing would contract, so what´s the point? I know. But this means a chance because of movement between the 2 pieces, that´s all.

Could work I guess.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Savage_Rob on 09/22/06 at 13:20:10

Stimpy wrote:

Ummm, look a few posts above at:

Savage_Rob wrote:

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Veritas on 09/22/06 at 19:45:47

I can't get it off without removing the Battery box. I really didn't want to do that. I'm looking into the extractor.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Probert31 on 09/22/06 at 19:59:00

Don't let it sweat you. I just did it the other day trying to rejet. I couldn't drop the bowl without it. Now I don't consider myself an idiot but, if I did it you can. It really looked a lot harder then it turned out to be. Even had to do it an extra time when I dropped mt screw into it. Good luck!!

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Steve530 on 09/23/06 at 07:42:26

Those screws are in there really tight. I can't imagine how they get them s tight without stripping the heads.

But I manged to get the screws out with a pair of needle-nose vice grips by grabbing the part of the screw that protrudes below the flange. I found it just about impossible to grab the heads of the screws.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Stimpy on 09/25/06 at 01:55:54

Oh, ok, got it.

The thing is that I have to do this myself soon and wanted to see the outcome and my options, that´s all.

Guess I´ll use a drill and an extractor and get it overwith.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by thumperclone on 09/25/06 at 06:55:55

Veritas wrote:

I can't get it off without removing the Battery box. I really didn't want to do that. I'm looking into the extractor.

got the carb off my 06 w/o jerkin the battery box or the tank only probs i had didnt pull vent tubes off carb bugger to feed back up the frame(fixed right next time i pulled the tank)pulled vent hose off petc0ck wrong!! ruined it trying to get it back on pullit off carb..good luck

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Veritas on 09/27/06 at 16:57:55

Finally! ;D

I went out and spent $95 on a decent drill and a screw extractor kit. They still have me a problem. I practically drilled the heads off 3 of them and still had to use the vice grips to get them out after working with the drill.

I put in 2 #4 washers and put her back together with some new screws. Did a test and it seems to be running pretty well!

Whew! :o

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by vroom1776 on 09/27/06 at 17:40:15

Well, Good work! ;D

Question... did you starrt w/ the smallest drill bit?

Best,

V

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Veritas on 09/27/06 at 17:48:52

Yeah, I started with the smallest bit and worked my way up. It just would not bite. It just kept grinding down the screw head more and more. I wish I had a digital cam so I could show you the screws.

Using nylon washers is ok, right? It's not gonna melt, are they?

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by vroom1776 on 09/27/06 at 17:56:51

No, the carb is far enough away from the engine that hey should be fine...

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Veritas on 09/27/06 at 18:07:04

Good, I tried metal ones, but they were too big and didnt fit the hole it should have so I found these black nylon ones at home depot.

So from here I should probably adjust the mixture screw, AND the idle speed?

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by vroom1776 on 09/27/06 at 18:54:37

Typically one sets the idle to about 1200 rpm, then tunes the pilot. did you read Lancer's jet tuning in the tech sect? Very good for pilot tuning... If you aint got a tach, and I don't either... turn in the idel screw until it "sounds like 1200 rpm." Normal idle is 1000 rpm, or about 7 putts from the muff/sec.

V

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Veritas on 09/27/06 at 19:05:48

so i HAVE to rejet in order to gain an advantage from the white spacer mod?

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by vroom1776 on 09/27/06 at 19:10:51

V,

Remind me what muffler and air intake you are running...

If stock, just gettingt he PMS screw set right should do it. Upping the main 1/2 size prolly won't hurt either, esp as you are at sea level.

V

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Dynobob on 09/27/06 at 21:42:18

Veritas wrote:

so i HAVE to rejet in order to gain an advantage from the white spacer mod?

The white spacer mod is part of a rejet.

0 - 1/8 throttle -> slow mixture screw and slow jet

1/8 - 3/4 throttle -> needle and white spacer

3/4 - WOT -> main jet

You'll choose your main jet size based on what exhaust (and intake) you're running.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Veritas on 09/28/06 at 01:10:02

I'm running otherwise stock. Is it going to hurt anything to do just the white spacer for now?

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by vroom1776 on 09/28/06 at 07:25:24

nope! Mine ran great stock... at 4000 ft. you won't hiurt it, but you are likely running a little lean on the main jet. If you are particularly concerned, check the plug...

Oh, and after adjusting the pms screw, reset the idle to 1000 rpm. And, pretty much anytime you go into the carb and change something, you might as well considder that "rejetting."

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Dynobob on 09/28/06 at 12:45:58

Veritas wrote:

I'm running otherwise stock. Is it going to hurt anything to do just the white spacer for now?

No. It will make your bike run much better. I'd go to 2/3s spacer and 147.5 main jet (up one size) on a stock bike. Replacing the main jet is easy.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Veritas on 09/28/06 at 12:47:41

Ok, rode it around a bit today. Still getting mild backfire on downshifting and a medium pop on shut down. Is that the mixture screw?

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by horseshoe_george on 10/01/06 at 15:17:54

Guido wrote:

When you get them all out, throw those screws away and go to ACE Hardware and buy some of those stainless steel allens!!

I'd doing the carb work next weekend. Does anyone know what size SS allens I need to get at the hardware store?

George

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by vroom1776 on 10/02/06 at 07:26:32

M6 or M4

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by vroom1776 on 10/02/06 at 07:27:56

Veritas wrote:

Ok, rode it around a bit today. Still getting mild backfire on downshifting and a medium pop on shut down. Is that the mixture screw?

How long did you ride it for? Did it fully warm up?

How many turns out is the PMS screw?

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Veritas on 10/02/06 at 10:43:54

I rode it for about 20 minutes. Yes, it was fully warmed up. The screw is 2 1/2 turns out.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by verslagen1 on 10/23/06 at 23:16:37

I urge caution for you all as I think the problem with the screws is corrosion. When ever dissimilar metals are in contact there is a potential for galvanic corrosion. I think the carb body is aluminum. And the screws are of course mild steel. They may or may not have been locktited at the factory, but as my new-2-me '96 ;D was as difficult to get the screws off a couple of weeks ago as the rest of you. My guess is it wasn't the issue. And you will have move trouble with the ss screws, as these 2 materials stick together. ;) The recommendation was to use anti-galling grease when installing these screws. But the vendor who sold me the screws said motor oil would do.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Savage_Rob on 10/24/06 at 06:08:45

I'm quite sure bimetallic/galvanic corrosion is part of the problem and that's another reason for using stainless screws as replacements. Corrosion is far slower, almost to the point of being nonexistent.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by serowbot on 10/24/06 at 10:17:55

Sometimes taking the shortcut, is the long way 'round.
I recommend pulling the battery box and removing the carb from the bike.
Get that puppy on a bench or in a vise where you can really attack it!
When it's on the bike, it has a little bit of give, away from the screwdriver or vise-grips, that will defeat the twisting bite of the tool. If you get the carb solidly braced, off the bike, you'll have a better chance.

The key for me is mental. I will NOT allow the carb or tool to shift.., only the screw.
Grrrrrrrr!

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Dynobob on 10/24/06 at 15:03:41

verslagen1 wrote:

I urge caution for you all as I think the problem with the screws is corrosion.

I disagree. The main problem is:

1. the screws are made of very soft metal. Substandard, you might say.

2. the factory puts them in really tight.

I did my carb when the bike was fairly new and half the bolts needed some assistance to come out. Using antiseize on bolts is always a good idea. I typically just oil them up with my oilgun.

Corrosion is a problem for bikes ridden in the rain or stored outside.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by Savage_Rob on 10/25/06 at 06:33:34

Dynobob wrote:

I got my bike already six years old and bimetallic corrosion appeared to be a part of why the screws were locked. That sort of corrosion can happen even in very good storage conditions. Your information tells me mine likely started out tight and just got worse. I assume I was lucky though. I used some liquid wrench on them and was then able to use a stubby screwdriver and tap it with a hammer several times to help free them and they came out. If I were doing it again, I'd remove the carb first and use an impact driver to free them. No matter how you get them out, replacing them with stainless allens is a smart move.

Title: Re: Carb Screws... gah!
Post by verslagen1 on 10/28/06 at 19:18:14

Dynobob wrote:

...soft screws...really tight... Everyone knows this means stripped threads.

And galvanic or bimetalic corrosion occurs regardless of the environmental conditions. Just ask the electric company why your lights dim every time you start up the washer. There's a copper/steel/aluminum connector in your fuse box. I guess they needed a reason to look at your fuse box every few years.