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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Clutch Slippage /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1158292927 Message started by Savage_Rob on 09/14/06 at 21:02:07 |
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Title: Clutch Slippage Post by Savage_Rob on 09/14/06 at 21:02:07 I just changed my oil about a month ago but I'm feeling what seems to be clutch slippage at high revs a bit before it grabs and goes. The bike's mileage is low enough (< 8k miles) that I find real clutch wear issues to be unlikely and I've been using Maxxum 4 synthetic in her. I only noticed it after I put the Amal carb on and only when I really twist the throttle. I'm theorizing the CV carb smooths out the power ramp enough for me not to catch this. I can hear/feel the engine rev higher shortly before she begins to pull significantly. Anyway, I've heard a lot of folks tout Mobil 1, so I thought I'd give it a shot. Thoughts? |
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Title: Re: Gonna Try Mobil 1 Post by babbalou on 09/14/06 at 21:50:02 I ran Mobil 1 car oil in my old Nighthawk 650 & didn't get any slippage & I ran the dogs**t out of that bike. But if it's slipping some on the Maxxum I'd go with the cycle specific Mobil 1. Heard good stuff about Amsoil cycle oil too. |
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Title: Re: Gonna Try Mobil 1 Post by clueless on 09/15/06 at 03:42:22 Rob, Been running 20W50 synthetic in mine for awhile. Seemed to help with the clutch too. Just my .02 ;D |
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Title: Re: Gonna Try Mobil 1 Post by Reelthing on 09/15/06 at 04:54:20 M1 vtwin 20w50 in the '95 and 10w40 in the '02. I do get a little clutch slipage on the '95 @24k miles - of course I still have the new clutch in the box and heavy duty clutch springs from Vesrah (#VSK306) to put in when ever my round-to-it shows up - it would be pretty interesting to just change out the springs and see if the slipage is gone and for how long. |
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Title: Re: Gonna Try Mobil 1 Post by mornhm on 09/15/06 at 05:21:05 Rob, I ran Mobil 1 15-50 in my Savage without any problems from the first oil change. I'm doing the same in my Concours which is a different beast, but also without any problems. |
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Title: Re: Gonna Try Mobil 1 Post by Balderdash on 09/15/06 at 05:23:20 Do you have to go to a bike shop specific to get Mobil 1 10/40? I went to my usual car parts store (O'Reilly) and they had about 6 different types of Mobil 1 but not the two bike kinds. They had another brand of all synthetic 10/40, but I thought I'd look around a little bit first since it's not urgent. What kind of store do you guys find this stuff in? Why would I try the 20/50 instead of the 10/40 anyway? |
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Title: Re: Gonna Try Mobil 1 Post by Savage_Rob on 09/15/06 at 05:51:14 I've been using the Maxxum 4 bike-specific full synthetic 15w50. I just picked up some regular Mobil 1 15w50 at Wal-Mart and planned to change it out this weekend. If it still slips with this, I'll use standard dino-juice and see how she feels. If that still slips, I'll crack her open and check out the clutch. If it doesn't slip, I'll experiment with other bike-specific synthetics or blends. I'll let y'all know. |
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Title: Re: Gonna Try Mobil 1 Post by Reelthing on 09/15/06 at 07:17:31 might want to try just some washers under the clutch springs - if I remember correct Slavy believes it will correct minor clutch slipage - seems like it's time not miles before most of them slip a bit - bet the springs are getting slightly weaker over time. The 20w50 makes the '95 top end much quiter than 10w40 in the summer heat and seems to keep the clutch a bit happier - but I really don't run it very hard at all. on the mobil 1 cycle oil - the oreillys is where I buy it - the 20w50 is vtwin the 10w40 is mx4t - they do not have a lot but normally have a case of each on the shelf. Not sure I'd pour car syn M1 in a bike - http://www.mobil1.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Motorcycle_Oil_FAQs.aspx |
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Title: Re: Gonna Try Mobil 1 Post by thumperclone on 09/15/06 at 07:19:56 Balderdash wrote:
one of our wal marts has it the other doesnt... |
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Title: Re: Gonna Try Mobil 1 Post by Rockin_John on 09/15/06 at 07:43:44 thumperclone wrote:
Guess which wally world has an auto dept. manager who rides? :) |
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Title: Re: Gonna Try Mobil 1 Post by bentwheel on 09/16/06 at 10:45:02 Savage_Rob, I can't help but think switching to a very lubricious synthetic Mobil 1 would only worsen your mild clutch slip problem. I do believe however that switching oil brands of the same viscosity, or thicker sometimes improves clutch performance. I prefer your idea of testing dino oil to alieviate clutch slip. Another thing to consider is the enhanced engine mods you made are now stressing your clutch springs. I also believe that stock Savage springs are the weak link in our clutch problems. I miked a set of plates from a badly slipping Savage clutch pack and found them well within Suzuki tolerance, in fact they were thicker than the Barnett replacement ones. I changed the plates because I had them on my bench, but I am convinced that changing the springs (also within specs) and shimming them was all that was required. Anyways, experiment with different oil and see if that solves your clutch concern. You may get a couple of more years out of your clutch, but I think you know that you have exposed your clutch (springs) as a future concern. |
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Title: Re: Gonna Try Mobil 1 Post by 911radioman on 09/16/06 at 14:25:06 I gotta tell ya, my Savage is really liking the Shell Rotella 15W-40. I think out of all the oils I've ever ran in my bikes, this is by far the best and it's pretty economical too, as far as that goes. Might want to give that a shot if you haven't already tried it. |
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Title: Re: Gonna Try Mobil 1 Post by pmanntex on 09/17/06 at 07:36:58 i used mobil 1 10w-40 initially. after two oil changes switched to 20w-50 Castrol ActEVO. bike shifts much better and doesn't seem to be generating as much engine heat. I am running in texas summer, though; you may have a different experience if you are in a cooler climate. |
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Title: Re: Gonna Try Mobil 1 Post by thumperclone on 09/17/06 at 11:36:25 ??? whats dino oil ?? non syn ?? also is it true once you go syn you cant go back?? if i want to "flush"the oil system what would i use??? |
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Title: Re: Gonna Try Mobil 1 Post by Savage_Rob on 09/18/06 at 07:00:14 So far as changing to Mobil 1, I thought I'd give it a shot since I was already on a motorcycle-specific pure synthetic. If I were experiencing slippage with dino juice, I wouldn't even consider it. If it doesn't make a big difference (and at this point I'm hopeful but doubtful), I'll replace the springs. In fact, I'm almost inclined to replace them anyway since they're not expensive. So far as mods go, I'd agree that some would make slippage more noticeable. Specifically the Amal carb not being a CV delivers nearly instant response as opposed to the sloped increase with the stock BS40. And TC... Yes, dinosaur juice would be non-synthetic. You can go back if you want to, though it'll probably take 1 or 2 changes to fully flush all of the old. In the hotter climes, I'm pretty much sold on synthetic as long as I don't encounter any intractable leaks. I know some HD guys who hate synthetic because it finds and exploits any leak points. I have not had any trouble with that though... other than the notorious plug leak (now fixed) and a bolt that needed torquing. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Savage_Rob on 09/20/06 at 12:40:28 Okay, after several days riding with Mobil 1 (motorcycle specific synthetic), I've decided it feels about the same as it did with the Maxum 4 Extra (motorcycle specific synthetic). I'm going with Reelthing's idea and changing the springs. Lancer is getting me a set from Barnett which I'll install shortly after I get 'em. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by thumperclone on 09/20/06 at 15:52:21 and only 8k on the od?? let us know what it looks like once you get it open...good luck! |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Savage_Rob on 09/20/06 at 21:41:02 I'm inclined to agree with what I understood Reelthing to be talking about. While mileage is probably a better indication of plate wear, age alone can account for a large part of spring life. Since the bike is a 98, it's entirely possible that the springs have become compressed and lost tension and that either shimming them with washers or replacing them (or both) will correct it. I'll replace the springs. While I'm in there, I'll inspect the plates and compare the new springs to the old ones. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Reelthing on 09/21/06 at 06:55:42 That is the thinking, these springs are as much or more effected by time and number of flexes as they are miles. If you rode long distance all the time with fewer stops it would seem to me the clutch would last just about forever but the springs are a different matter as they are doing the same work if the bike is rolling down the road or parked with extra work when you shift and if your shifting alot your not running miles up on the bike either. In this case with the carb change you're making more umph at lower rpms as the amal is mech slide instead of vac and it stands to reason it needs a bit more pressure on the plates. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Savage_Rob on 09/21/06 at 07:11:05 Yup, yup. I'm on board with that. I thought about the increased torque with the Amal but didn't think about the likely loss of spring tension over time. Thanks for the heads-up on what should've been a logical conclusion on my part. Michael's getting me new springs and I'll see where it goes from there. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by bentwheel on 09/21/06 at 08:23:33 You know what Savage_Rob? I am still curious to see what would happen using dino oil. I realize oil has almost no effect on spring tension, but just maybe dino oil will have sufficient drag to stop minor plate slippage. One thing about Barnett clutch springs you will find is they are thinner than stock ones. I assume/hope they have greater tensile strength. You will also find out the springs sit in a slight recess in the hub, so using shims larger than the recess gives you a little more spring compression. By shimming your springs you are making another performance mod, so as a reaction to this you should keep a close eye on your clutch cable. It is now under just a little more stress now. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Savage_Rob on 09/21/06 at 11:39:03 I was thinking about trying the dino oil but I kinda doubt it would make that much difference. Still, since I don't plan to reuse my (now 5-days used) Mobil 1, I suppose I could drain it now and refill with some Rotella dino juice and run that until I get new springs. I'll consider that a bit, if only for curiosity's sake. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Savage_Rob on 09/21/06 at 17:16:57 Well, I stopped at the local Sprawl-Mart to pick up some dino oil to give it a shot but they had none made for a bike. The only bike-specific oils there were Mobil 1 10w40 and 20w50 for 4-strokes and a Castrol dino oil for 2-strokes. The only Rotella was 15w40 for diesels. Since I don't know when I'll get by a bike shop, I may not try it before replacing the springs. If I happen to, I'll let y'all know what happens. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by 911radioman on 09/21/06 at 17:22:32 Rob, the Rotella will work fine for you. That's what I run in my Savage and it loves it. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Savage_Rob on 09/21/06 at 17:56:34 I was looking around at a lot of opinions on the web and I found some folks that love it in their bikes and some who don't. Some say it cured clutch issues and a few who said it made it worse. One other point is that only about half specified whether they used Rotella dino or synth. The rest left me to guess. One guy stated that diesel oils use additives to suspend soot because diesels soot the oil badly and these additives can get into the combustion chamber and contribute to predetonation in gasoline engines. There was another fellow who said he wrote Shell and got the following response: Quote:
It appears the lack of friction modiers is the main reason it seems to work well in wet clutch applications. It's only the last paragraph that gives me pause... though the owner's manual doesn't call for JASO specs. I do have to admit it's very cost effective. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by 911radioman on 09/21/06 at 23:03:26 Yeah, it seems that oil definitely evokes a lot of emotion on both sides of the debate. I guess I look at the Savage as it being relatively "old" technology engine-wise, as compared to some of the other choices in bikes/engines out there, and in my mind (feeble as it is LOL) the engine should handle it fairly well. Might be worth a shot for one oil change though to see if it helps your slippage issue. If it doesn't, I wouldn't think one time of using the Rotella would harm your engine in any significant way. Just my .02 cents worth on it... |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Savage_Rob on 09/24/06 at 16:43:58 I think I'll probably stick with 100% synthetic for the norm but I went ahead and drained her and filled her up with Rotella T 15w40 just to see if it makes a noticeable difference. I figure it's a cheap and easy experiment that won' hurt and it'll be good to know if it can help in similar circumstances. I'll run that this week and change the springs next weekend. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by thumperclone on 09/24/06 at 18:21:21 my owners manual(printed june 2005) shows :10w-40 api sh/sj having the same rating as jaso ma & api sf/sg with no jaso equivalent(side bar there are only 2 jaso t903[oil standard for 4 stroke m.c. and atv]classifications..ma and mb) :) |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Savage_Rob on 09/28/06 at 20:38:15 Okay, I've got 200+ miles on her with the Shell Rotella T and I can say that there is a discernable improvement, though it is slight. I will replace the springs and probably shim them at the same time. I'm hoping for this weekend but several other things have come up that may push it out a bit. If so, I don't mind riding her for another week or two with the Rotella. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by 911radioman on 09/28/06 at 21:50:58 Even if you decide not to stick with the Shell Rotella, it might be worth considering, say, Castrol GTX 20W-50. The clutch may well like that heavier oil. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Savage_Rob on 09/29/06 at 05:14:53 911radioman wrote:
Except for this experiment with the Rotella T, all I've ever run in her has been either 15w50 or 20w50 motorcycle-specific pure synthetics. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by barry68v10 on 09/29/06 at 05:24:46 "Slippery'er" (don't think that's a word) oil will do a better job of lubing the cylinder wall, bearings, gears, etc. The catch is the clutch because its "wet". The best solution would be to shim the clutch springs to make them grab harder and run the best oil you can. Next alternative is to go to less slippery oil. In the long run stiffer clutch springs and slippery oil will save wear and tear on parts but isn't as appealing for the short term. (The work involved.) I just got a '98 Savage with 700 miles on her and I think there's "stealership" oil in her now. I'm putting in Amsoil 10-40 next go, any slippage = shimmed springs... Just my 2 cents . |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Savage_Rob on 09/29/06 at 06:12:08 That's my basic plan. I am replacing the OEM springs with Barnett versions and shimming them at the same time. The main reason for my using the synthetic though is for it's resistance to various pitfalls like shearing and thermal viscosity breakdown. I use the motorcycle-specific synthetics to avoid the additional slipperiness you'll find in auto synthetics, which emply various friction modifiers for that purpose. Anyway, using the Rotella T was only meant as an experiment to see if it made a noticeable difference. However, with the majority of opinions I've read concerning its use with bikes, I'd consider running it all the time if it wasn't for the higher ash content and the potential for combustion chamber fouling. When it comes to the bike-specific synthetics, I believe the Mobil 1, Amsoil and Maxum4 Extra are comparable to each other in quality. I ran the Maxum4 Extra 15w50 for a while because I got a great deal on several liters of it a couple of years ago. Under normal everyday conditions, Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w50 at Wal-Mart seems to be the best buy. There is a lot of info out there on them and this is an oft-discussed topic on almost every bike site I've come across. I am aware of several threads on this board in the past few years concerning it. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Savage_Rob on 10/15/06 at 16:20:50 Well, I drained and discarded the Rotella T, pulled the exhaust and right footpeg assembly.... and realized I hadn't bought a new gasket for the clutch cover. Bleh. So I just did a once-over on the bike, replaced the oil filter and put in fresh Mobil1 and put the exhaust back on with a new crushable gasket. However, I did notice something else. It seems the last time I adjusted and lubed my cables (when I replaced my handlebars), I did away with the freeplay on the clutch cable. It may have been too tight. I don't know if that may have contributed to my symptoms or not. Anyway, I've ordered the clutch cover gasket and still plan to replace the springs but I might wait until the next regular oil change. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by barry68v10 on 10/16/06 at 18:55:36 Yep...no clutch free-play can play havoc with clutch engagement :o |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Oklahoma_Mike on 10/18/06 at 07:58:37 Savage_Rob wrote:
majorly! IMHO |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Savage_Rob on 10/18/06 at 08:41:08 It definitely did. Once I found it I was afraid it was the reason but at least I found it before replacing the springs. I'm still not sure how/why I did it, because I know to leave freeplay, but I obviously hosed it. She seems to be just fine now and she's running with Mobil 1 20w50. I'll hang onto the springs and gasket because I'm sure I'll need 'em at some point. In the mean time, I think I won't fix what ain't broke. My apologies to all for the apparent wild goose chase. Maybe this can help someone else avoid making the same mistake. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by barry68v10 on 10/18/06 at 14:23:18 Hey, sorry Savage_Rob! I should have had your back on that one...did that once or twice myself. Well, now I won't do THAT one... ;) |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Oklahoma_Mike on 11/03/06 at 08:17:22 Rob, Did Lancer get you those springs? How much were they. I have the same clutch problem. Mine however is not the freeplay. My bike was made in the 80's a well over do for a new set if time is the killer. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Savage_Rob on 11/03/06 at 09:58:48 Oklahoma_Mike wrote:
Yes he did. I think they were about $10 or $12 + S/H for the set of Barnetts. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Slippage Post by Oklahoma_Mike on 11/03/06 at 10:21:13 Thank you sir I am trying to get in touch with him to get the info and stuff. |
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