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Message started by platinum_ghost on 07/23/06 at 17:27:48

Title: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by platinum_ghost on 07/23/06 at 17:27:48

I've looked all over this forum, studying the back fire issues others have had. My 2002 Savage had been taken to a dealer by the previous owner to get the issue resolved, and I had no backfiring when I bought the bike.

In my thirst for power I halved the white spacer, causing much backfiring. I swapped the main up to a 150, also still backfiring. My question is this:

When I turn the Idle Air Screw out I get very few large "CRACKS!"

When I turn the screw in, Iget lots of little "pop,pop,pop, pop,pops"

I am thinking my Pilot is too small to meet fuel demands when the throttle plate closes. Could I be right?

Background:

Filthy air filter
1/2 white spacer
#150 Main
47.5 Pilot
Idle set at "who knows"
Small tear in outer edge of rubber on the "Diaphram Assy" #32 @ http://www.ronayers.com/fiche/300_0271/carburetor/carburetor.cfm?man=su&groupid=7130&parent=7080

Advice is appreciated.THX!

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by Reelthing on 07/23/06 at 20:12:46

platinum_ghost wrote:

Small tear in outer edge of rubber on the "Diaphram Assy" #32

if the tear is in a place that effects proper lift and fall of the needle, seems to me you could never make it run correct except for wot and idle

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by Dynobob on 07/23/06 at 23:33:43

Check for both intake and exhaust leaks. Fix that diaphram. If you have stock exhaust, your jetting should be fine. Only if you need to go beyond 3 turns or so do you need a larger pilot jet.

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by platinum_ghost on 07/24/06 at 02:36:04

Thanks. Even at 3 turns out, the backfiring is still going on. I'll replace that diaphram and try again I guess. I don't have exhaust leaks anywhere. Man, that diaphram is like $32! :o

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by lancer on 07/24/06 at 05:58:09

Add up the cost of the various things you will need to do the job, then decide if it is worth fixing or possible be better off going with a new carb.
It can be a hard decision to make, especially if the cost is not real high but the hassle of trying to make it work pushes the whole thing to the edge of frustration.

Do you have the Clymer and/or the shop manual? If you are going to try to FIX the carb then you NEED the books. At the very least spend some time on the Mikuni.com website reviewing the steps involved in tuning "by the numbers".

When thinking about a new carb the cost for the basics ... carb, mounting flange, throttle cable ... will run close to $200, while the full monty is above $300.

It all depends on your knowledge and skills with carbs.

I don't know if this has helped much but there are some things to consider.

One thing for sure, if you are keeping the stock carb to fix it, then the diaphram needs replacing if it is damaged.

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by platinum_ghost on 07/24/06 at 15:50:00

Allow me to clarify about the diaphram, the diaphram that is damaged is not the diaphram for the carb needle. It is the (I believe it is called) atmospheric pressure diaphram? If confused, see the link I posted earlier.
I'll still replace the diaphram, but I think I'll one-up the pilot jet as well. Other people on the board that have similar issues seem to increase the pilot jet size to clear the backfiring issue after the spacer mod.

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by Reelthing on 07/24/06 at 17:41:36

sorry didn't follow the post to see which diaphram you meant - I believe anti-backfire is it's function - if I remember correct savage_rob should have a used but working order spare - might make you a deal ;)

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by lancer on 07/24/06 at 19:56:13

platinum_ghost wrote:

Assuming there are no exhaust leaks, the pilot jet is the controlling factor for 95% of all backfiring.

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by Reelthing on 07/24/06 at 21:20:47

If you have a tear in the air cut-off diaphram you are going to get backfires - suggest you fix this before you change anything else - these folks have it for ~$18
and a description of it's function.

partnumber# 13480-05A10

http://www.cyclewareables.com/pages/air_cutoffValve_replacements/aircutoff.htm

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by platinum_ghost on 07/25/06 at 02:47:07

THANKS! :)

BTW, there arent any exhaust leaks that I could find. I'll replace the diaphram and go from there.

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by jaeger on 07/25/06 at 08:44:00

Since we're talking about possibly replacing the carb... so while I was adjusting stuff I managed to strip the F/A screw. Nicked it with the drill just a hair when removing the plug and... well, you know.

Oops.

From those of you who've done it before (I know you're out there) -- should I try to extract the screw or should I just get a whole new carb?

If the former, how would you recommend?

If the latter, can I use any carb from any Savage/S40 on my '96?

Thanks!

--Jaeger

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by geo on 07/25/06 at 12:18:26

What are you using for a muffler? Are you still using the stock muffler? You need to get a SuperTrapp and use 10 discs to take advantage of that 150 main jet.

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by Reelthing on 07/25/06 at 14:00:46

jaeger wrote:

strip the head or the threads? - heard of folks cutting a new slot on the head - check the other post a used one was bought for the bowl - maybe there's deal there

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by platinum_ghost on 07/25/06 at 15:30:42

I'm stock with 2 1-inch holes through the baffle. I'll worry about Supertrapp Mufflers, when I have money for the air cut off valve :P!

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by platinum_ghost on 07/26/06 at 17:20:21

55 pilot jet went in today, due to the fact I couldn't get rid of the backfire through the idle air mixture screw alone. I can adjust the screw so all I get are pops, but I can't get rid of them completely. I'll try again when I get the air cut off valve replaced.
One question though, how do you know if the idle is in the correct range?

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by platinum_ghost on 07/28/06 at 02:56:33

Well, I must have done something wrong because the Savake died while doing 75 on the highway twice. Each time I had to let the bike sit before she'd turn over, and the second time I had to pull out the choke. I guess I overheated? Is that correct? The engine started to lurch and them it just stopped, like I had hit the kill switch. I pulled the plug when I got home and it looks normal.

I'm getting the bike put back the way it was. It ran perfectly, I just wanted more power, but I'd rather not stop on the highway again.

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by Savage_Rob on 07/28/06 at 07:42:26

Check for proper fuel flow (I like a clear in-line fuel filter) and check the vacuum line to be sure it's not cracked, pinched or broken. Also consider the dying could be electrical. It wouldn't be the first time a loose kickstand interlock has caused that symptom.

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by lancer on 07/28/06 at 12:13:37

I have to agree with S/R, I do not think the carb did that to you on the hi-way. When something happens quickly like that then either the fuel or electrical has been interrupted instantly. Jetting and tuning issues are much more slow to show.

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by platinum_ghost on 07/28/06 at 15:55:19

I know a little bit of fuel was coming through the vacuum line. I don't know what effect that would have.

I'll look into the electrical system and the vacuum line too. Thanks!

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by Savage_Rob on 07/28/06 at 16:16:31

There shouldn't be fuel in the vacuum line. If you're sure it's the vacuum line, your petc0ck might be faulty. If so, you could be flooding.

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by Reelthing on 07/29/06 at 12:15:32

platinum_ghost wrote:

I know a little bit of fuel was coming through the vacuum line. I don't know what effect that would have.

I'll look into the electrical system and the vacuum line too. Thanks!

suggest you fix the petc0ck asap - in the mean time you could switch it to pri and plug the vac line - a failed petc0ck has been known to lead to many things - starvation of the carb at sustained higher speeds, flooding of the engine, and in really bad case filling the engine crankcase

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by platinum_ghost on 07/29/06 at 19:05:28

How should I go about repairing the petcock? I pulled it off and checked to see if the diaphram was operating, and it seems to be working. How can I repair / improve on the petcocks operation?

Title: Re: Am I Lean or Rich? Newb
Post by platinum_ghost on 07/29/06 at 19:30:27

Are there any known issues after converting the petcock to "ON / OFF / RES?