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Message started by klinc on 07/09/06 at 12:24:45

Title: Dont know where to go from here
Post by klinc on 07/09/06 at 12:24:45

A couple months ago I purchased an 87 Savage. It was running rough and i got the carburator cleaned out real well and replaced both rubber diaphrams in it.

I have done other work to it reguarding starter gear breaking out and oil leaks. I had it running well until it started leaking oil from the middle of the crankcase. I ended up getting pissed off and purchasing a motor from a 98 Savage off Ebay and dropping it in last week.

After putting it all together it started right up without any problems. Sits there and idles well. The first time I tried to take it out and hit the throttle starting at about 1/4 (maybe slightly less) and up the bike starts choking (from what I can tell). The work I did before, I pulled out 1 of 2 white spacers that were in there and just this morning put it back in thinking it was getting too much fuel. I just fired it up and it is doing the same thing.

When it starts doing this I can see a blue flames shooting out the muffler in broad daylight. I know I am running a 155 main jet but not for sure on the others off the top of my head. This carburator was running fine with the other motor.

Any input would be helpful as I am not for sure if it is "choking" or "starving" for fuel.

Thanks

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by serowbot on 07/09/06 at 16:06:26

As bad as it sounds like your running, I think you dealing with something beyond a jetting problem. (i.e. something broke or stuck)

Have you checked your petc0ck?

It has a wire screen in it that could clog and make you starve for fuel.

If you have black smoke coming out the exhaust, your rich. If so, check the petc0ck's vacuum line for gas. The petc0ck has a diaphram in it that can leak gas down that vacuum line and into your carb's mix. (mine had this problem and wouldn't run for sh*t. Took me a month to figure out)

If the carb had 2 spacers under the needle jet, it was modified by a previous owner. I don't know the size of the spacers you have but a sa reference the stock one is 0.10" thick. Usually mods go to a 0.065".

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by Keith_B on 07/09/06 at 16:26:47

:o 0.065 ?

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by serowbot on 07/09/06 at 16:56:04

Keith,
nice catch! I edited it.
serobot

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by klinc on 07/09/06 at 17:06:07

I removed the petcock a few weeks ago just to check and make sure it was clean. It also runs like this with the petcock in the "pri" positon so I would think that would remove a vacuum problem as a possibility. I can see a steady stream of fuel through the clear lines and filter installed. No smoke coming out of the exhaust just a noticable flame here and there.

The spacers are pretty thin. Thinner then pictures I have seen of ones on here. Looks like it is getting close to the thinkness of the ones I have seen in pictures with both of them in there, though. I will check the thickness of these the next time I tear the carb apart, probably tomorrow. I am sure it has been "tuned" before.

This afternoon after posting the original message I played with the idle mix screw (not control screw) and turned all the way to the close position and the bike still runs. I can tell it is about to die but still runs. I have been into the carb more times than I can count now and just cleaned it all out once again last night. The only other thing to do would be to soak it as its as clean it is ever going to get with the spray can method.

Like I said it ran ok (other than leaking oil) with the old engine that had 23,000 miles on it. The new engine has 3,600 and is much much cleaner inside. Could this casue the tuning in the carb to be way off?

Just seems to me like it is a too much fuel problem, but dont have a baseline to go from and I am not a mechanic. What I know I have learned by working on this motorcycle really. I did swap the engine myself so I am not too stupid. ;)

Thnak for the reply

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by Brewbrother on 07/09/06 at 18:02:24

Have you considered changing the plug wire?? Its the weak link in the spark chain.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by klinc on 07/09/06 at 18:28:14

No sir.... never thought of spark plug wire. I can add that to the list of stuff to order I suppose.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by Brewbrother on 07/09/06 at 18:39:24

klinc wrote:

No sir.... never thought of spark plug wire. I can add that to the list of stuff to order I suppose.

Its under $20. Plus it couldn't hurt.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by Reelthing on 07/09/06 at 21:07:27

Might be something else but sounds like the carb, since this is an '87 carb does it have the three groves on the needle at the c-clip?

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by klinc on 07/09/06 at 21:43:20

No grooves in the needle on this carb. It has a metal washer/c-clip/2 thin white plastic spacers from bottom to top.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by Reelthing on 07/09/06 at 22:11:26

well it sounds to me like it's going very rich as soon as the slide lifts the needle hardly at all - have you had the main jet out and are you sure the washer is under it - this holds the needle jet tube in place

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by klinc on 07/09/06 at 22:55:33

Yes had it out jsut Saturday evening. Made sure to keep track of the washer and made sure it was put back in.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by serowbot on 07/09/06 at 23:09:21

Going to prime will prove your getting gas, but your vacuum line could still be drawing extra gas. Try plugging both ends of the vacuum line and running on prime. This will tell you if the line has been letting gas sneek past.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by Reelthing on 07/10/06 at 10:51:46

fine idea - if it's sucking gas into the vacuum via a leaking diaphram that would such give it a gulp

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by klinc on 07/10/06 at 11:01:35

Well, I have completely screwed up the air/fuel mix screw. Pretty much stuck and stripped. :-/

This motorcycle is turning into an expensive mechanics lesson. Trying to find another but might have to buy a brand new carb if I cannot find something soon.

Will keep you posted.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by Dragon King on 07/10/06 at 15:28:25

this person has been parting out an 87 on e-bay. may try to contact and see if he has a carb. cmt_technologies

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by Brewbrother on 07/10/06 at 16:19:35

Brewbrother wrote:

Its under $20. Plus it couldn't hurt.

My bad I was just looking at the plug cap.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by cstout on 07/10/06 at 18:48:05

klinc wrote:

I can see a blue flames shooting out the muffler in broad daylight.

Flames shooting out the exhaust sounds more like a timing issue than a fuel issue.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by Reelthing on 07/10/06 at 20:49:46

cstout wrote:

Flames shooting out the exhaust sounds more like a timing issue than a fuel issue.

possible - but since we can't directly effect the timing - the other deal that does this is it is so rich raw fuel actually puddles in the muffler and ignites blowing flames - one fellow here had it so rich it was dripping fire out the pipe

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by klinc on 07/10/06 at 22:12:16

Well I got a hold of the carburetor from the same person that I bought the motor from. I took it apart and cleaned really well. It was gunked up very bad.

This is the carb that was in the motor when he had it and the jets were way way off from what I was running in my carb for my motor (eg. 155 main jet in mine and 140 in the carb that I got from him). So, yeah it was dumping alot more fuel in it then it was used to taking.

Of course while I had the carb I got today apart I just ahd to use my needle setup in it (It looked to have original spacer in it) and the main jet was missing the metal washer underneath it, so I put mine in there underneath. Yeah, I know I should have left it at what is was first.

It starts now again but with a little more then 1/4 throttle was popping and shooting out white flame now ( this was at night this time). It doesn't start popping until I give a little more throttle than before. Will put the spacer back to the way it was tomorrow and see what happens.

Thanks all for your input.

Edit: Almost forgot.... There is no fuel leaking through the vacuum line from the petcock.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by serowbot on 07/10/06 at 23:02:29

Really thought that vacuum line was it! Two different carbs, two different motors, still runnin' funky. Gotta' look to gas tank/petc0ck, or wiring.
My bet still says it's a fuel problem and it seems rich.
One more thing... When my vac line was leaking, it didn't show until I gave a gentle suck on the line... then I got a mouthfull. Yuuuck!!! I don't know how else to say it, but, my trouble was very similar to what you discribe.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
Best luck! It really is a great bike once you work out the bugs. I bought mine non-running too.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by cstout on 07/11/06 at 04:31:16

Two different motors and two different carbs and no change? It almost has to be ignition like a bad coil or plug wire perhaps. You need to focus on the constants, or what *wasn't* changed.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by klinc on 07/11/06 at 10:33:26

OK,
Just tried again. Put the new (to me carb) back to the way I got it (the needle setup and took out the washer underneath the main jet).

Started it up and same thing. Idles good, but when I give it throttle the backfire is still there. I set the petcock to pri and unplugged the vacuum line between it and the carb just to make sure no gas was getting in from there.

I took out the sparkplug, not wet or black. I talked to a guy that works here in the office and he said do a compression check (possible valves rusted and wont seat) and check the timing.

I did not want to have to get into this far but I guess I am going to have to get a service guide/book for this thing.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by klinc on 07/11/06 at 10:38:07

cstout wrote:

Two different motors and two different carbs and no change? It almost has to be ignition like a bad coil or plug wire perhaps. You need to focus on the constants, or what *wasn't* changed.

First motor ran ok. I just took it out because of oil leaks in the middle of the crankcase and I was not comfortable with taking an entire motor apart.

My motor had 23,000 miles and I found a motor off a 1998 with 3,800 miles for only 350 dollars. The guy said the motor ran fine, but his girlfriend freaked out and hit curb and stopsign and bent the rims and front forks all up so he was parting the bike out.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by chud on 07/11/06 at 10:53:22

sounds like that motor has jumped time
check timing and leave carb alown you are geting fuel.
poping and spiting is a good sign that your out of time or jumped time could even be a bent or stuck valve

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by klinc on 07/11/06 at 11:24:24

Yeah, I am done with the carb for now. It has to be with something in the motor.

Is there an easy way to check the timing. I see on here how to check/adjust the valves and along with that putting the piston/valves at a certain point.

If the timing was off I would never be able to get the two to that point right? So, would that work to check timing or is there something else I have to do?

Sorry if I seem to be asking stupid questions. Learning as I go, but I will never forget this stuff this way.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by chud on 07/11/06 at 11:34:45

The fist thing i would do it get the motor to TDC and put an air fiting in the plug hole and see if the air come out the muff or the carb. When you get TDC check your marks but this is not EZ. you could be one tooth off a list of stuff man. I would need to here and see to know for shure. but check your marks and shout some air to that cyl. if you have no air coming out check marks.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by cstout on 07/11/06 at 11:41:22

klinc wrote:

OK, I got confused. In that case, I go back to my original idea of being a timing issue. I'm assuming you have your original electronics for ignition so there would be no change there, so it would probably be valve timing.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by klinc on 07/11/06 at 11:56:19

cstout wrote:

Everything is the same except motor/w starter and now the carburetor. I have changed nothing electronic or otherwise.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by Kropatchek on 07/11/06 at 12:38:46

Remember having seen this problem on the German forum.
Your frame and the CDI are from '87 and the engine is from '98 ; they don't match

Now you can do 2 things:

1) Remove the rotor from the 87 engine and install on the 98 engine - or

2) Get the CDI from the guy who sold you the 98 engine and install on yours.

Problem solved. ;D

Greetz
Kropatchek 8)

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by klinc on 07/11/06 at 12:41:30

Kropatchek wrote:

Ah, My Uncle was just saying something about maybe the eloctronic timing is off. That he would doubt the mechanical timing was off with this few miles on it.

Thanks for the heads up and will see what I can come up with.

Edit: The person still has it and am going to to get it tonight. I wonder if this little endevour can get anymore expensive. I got this bike to save on gas and here I am driving all over Florida to grab parts everynight, lol.

I hope I am correct in that the CDI is the "Igniter"?

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by klinc on 07/11/06 at 18:36:49

Well holy hell.......

Kropatchek, I owe you a drink it looks like.

Went and picked up the other computer and just put it on. I started up the bike and I can rev it up good now. I get the occasional backfire I am used to and I'm sure the carb will need adjusted a bit, but it feels much better now.

Just a note for others that may run into this problem. The connecters are different on these computers ("igniter" labeled box). Luckily the guy I got the parts from just handed me the whole wiring harness with everything left attached and just said take I dont need them. I was able to cut the two conenctors off and had to use some elec. tape to splice on the other connecter to fit the computer. I will fix it up better later. The wires were each colored differently and were extremly easy to splice right together. No diagram needed.

Everything seems to work while it is sitting there. I am going back out to put everything back together so I can ride it and check it out. Dear lord I am going on about 6 hours of sleep the last two days and if this thing runs I forsee yet another late night...... darn bike when its broke and darn bike when its running. ;D

Hopefully this is it. Will keep you updated.

Thank you all for your help.

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by klinc on 07/11/06 at 21:34:16

Well, I drove it home (about 30 minutes) and left the car at the office. Ran great all the way and not one backfire until I shut the bike down.

Thanks again all

Title: Re: Dont know where to go from here
Post by Kropatchek on 07/12/06 at 02:09:53

You're welcome, glad to be of service.

Greetz

Kropatchek ;D