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Message started by Borgschulze on 07/03/06 at 13:29:09

Title: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/03/06 at 13:29:09

Ok, So after replacing a spark plug, and fixing a leaking petc0ck (That is the valve on the bottom of the gastank right?), I got the bike to run.

But it will ONLY start if you DON'T give it extra throttle, and it will stall once it is running if you do give it more throttle.

It sounds like it used to, but it definetly doesn't run like it used to.

The bike has been sitting for 4+ years without being run once.

Side notes: I had to boost it with a van to get it running, battery isn't holding charge.
Choke must be engaged also.

I'm only 17, so be easy on me, not any sort of expert mechanic, but I can be easily guided through how to fix this bike.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle..
Post by sluggo on 07/03/06 at 14:05:22

sounds like carb problems, that and replace the vacuum lines. it's cheep easy and a quick first step. i'm sure others with chime in with more detailed instructions

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/03/06 at 14:08:11

Can you provide me with information on how to do this?

I had already looked deep into this message board for information on getting it started, and I had indeed guessed it was a carburrator problem.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by sluggo on 07/03/06 at 14:12:20

follow the vaccum line back from the petc0ck, and replace it. pretty easy to accomplish. check the tech section, or one of the carb gods will take over. ;D

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/03/06 at 14:43:17

Ok, so the vacuum line is the black tube leading from the bottom of the petc0ck to the front right side of the carb right?

Still looking for information on how to clean the carb properly.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by serowbot on 07/03/06 at 16:41:19

The vacuum line usually has a chrome spring around the lenght of it, like the front brake. It comes off the back of pet-thingy and go'es to the muffler side of the carb. It is also smaller diameter than the fuel line.
Before you replace it check to see if it has any gas in it, (it should not). Give a gentle suck on it (no really!) (don't swallow). If you get any gas out of it, the vacuum diaphram in the back of Pet-thingy is leaking.
A rebuild kit is about $50.00 US from the dealer or you can convert pet-thingy to on-off reserve (see tech forum for instructions). I did it.
If that seems o.k. (no gas in line) go ahead and replace the line with new hose, and look into your carb for a fix. At that point I would check that your float is working and remove and blow out all jets with air.

Good luck and don't give up. Let us know how it's going.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/03/06 at 17:46:52

Wow, it's a real pain in the ass to remove the carb...

Anyways, it looks as if someone has tried to take it apart before, and I stress try... got some stripped heads on the screws, only part I can remove is the bowl, I think it's called, where the float is, two circular pieces. These pieces look gold/brownish colour.

The top part and the part on the side with three screws can't be taken off. Top piece, screws are pretty much siezed, and the side cover part, one stripped head screw.

Other than that, the thing that turns when you turn the throttle, inside there, is very clean, looks brand new.

I really want to be riding this bike after I get my lisence this summer, thanks for the help.

EDIT: No gas in the vacuum line, but it is just a black line, no spring around it...

Also, how do I know if the float works? As long as it moves? What about the black piece that moves inside the middle, goes up then slowly descends down again.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by serowbot on 07/03/06 at 18:54:47

Take those stripped screws to the hardware store and get allen-head screws the same size to replace them. If you can't get the top screws out with a screwdriver you can try vise grips(put a little penetrating oil or wd-40 on them too, but first really try to find a good screwdriver bit thats a perfect fit for the screw and give them buggers one more try.
Gold/brownish colour, yup, that's the float. Looks like you have the carb off the bike, so see that the float balls don't have liquid in them, or they won't float. The black piece you refer to is, I think, the float valve. It's brass, hexagontal, with a black rubber cone on the tip and runs up and down in a hole. That's where your gas enters the float bowl. If that rubber tip or the seat it closes against is worn or dirty, the gas won't stop coming in when the bowl is full. You end up with gas all over (leaking out, or filling the crankcase, or making your bike run way rich).
If your bike chugs black smoke out the back if your way rich.
Check the float level after you put it back on the bike. To do that you hook it back up, turn petthingy to prime, sit on the bike so it's upright for a minute, then turn the pet-thingy back to "on", carefully remove the float bowl and see how much gas is in there. Should be 1/2" or so from the top.
But while your in the carb bottom, pull the main jet (Brass screw 1 slot common) between the 2 floats at the base of an aluminium tube(don't loose the washer). The main jet has a hole in the middle of it, see that it is clean and clear. It has a number stamped on it. Probably 145, that's stock. Make a note of that number then put the jet back in. Firm but gentle. A plugged main is not your problem but you might as well clean it and know what size it is for the future.
Put her back together with the new allen screws and you will be able to pull the float bowl with the carb on the bike from now on.
o.k.?
The tech section of this site also has an exploded view of the carb. Might be a help.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by serowbot on 07/03/06 at 19:02:44

Also, what part of the world are you in? Maybe your close to someone that could help, or give you phone advise. If you would like.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/03/06 at 20:00:40

I live in Southern Ontario, in central Hamilton, about an hour drive from Toronto.

My brother is a mechanic, but he is the kind that says "Oh you don't need that" and other stuff like not checking for gas till he tried to start something for 10 minutes, and tweaked a bunch of stuff... I prefer someone who will make sure stuff is properly done.

The bike appears to run fine without any added throttle, no blue or black smoke, sounds like it is supposed to, etc.. It's just the carburator I believe.

I did some reading, and from what I understand there is a Jet or set of them that gas flows through only when the throttle is closed, and when you open the throttle, it uses a different set of jets and pulls more air through the air filter. From what I understand, only the Jets that pull fuel when the throttle is open are clogged, and this is why it stalls.

I've learned a lot more about engines than I did in grade 9 and 10 auto class. Thanks a lot guys.

I will go to Canadian Tire tomorrow and buy carb cleaner, and the replacement screws IF I can get the ones with the stripped heads out.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by serowbot on 07/04/06 at 01:24:37

Throttle open jet is the main jet (located in the float bowl).
Gas flow from that jet is metered by the needle and slide. You access them from the top of the carb (gotta' get those screws out!)
Check that the slide moves freely and the rubber diaphram on the top is not rotted or torn.
Then, replace those crappy top screws with allen heads to save trouble in the future! That way you're not only fixing your problem, but making your bike more serviceable in the future.
Best of luck!

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/04/06 at 01:38:47

The black thing in the center is the slide? The part that is going through the center, where the air is drawn in from.

If so, mine is a bit sticky, it goes up pretty good, but slides down really slowly.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by azjay on 07/04/06 at 07:32:51

that is a good sign that your diaphram is not torn or a bad sign that your slide is sticky, dont worry about that too much right now, you can get to that later. you did not mention fresh fuel? can we assume you've drained all the old stuff out of the tank and carb? i would start this project with fresh load of premium, wether you run it later or not, it wont be a factor as we work through this.
the next issue, since you have the carb off, is to get inside, if your phillips screws on top are rounded out, you can use a dremel or hacksaw to cut a slot in each screw so you can use a standard screwdriver, penetrating oil for the threads, and tapping on the end of the screwdwriver, with a hammer, while applying twist, for the impact effect to help break loose the threads, be careful not to twist the slot out. i have had luck using vise grips and a screwdriver simultaniously to get a stuck screw out if there is enough side to the screw head to get a bite.
we specifically had a problem with the enrichening valve, recently, that is the three screws on the right side of the carb, being gummed up on our bike. you mentioned the side screws are stripped too, this should be approached similar to the top, except we need to make a phillips fit, hopefully you can take a phillips screwdriver and grind the tip down a little at a time, the concrete floor will often work if you dont have a grinder, so that it fits in the cross better (may also work for top screws), penetrating oil and hammer tapping will hopefully do the job. otherwise drilling and tapping may be the only alternative.
if you want to try something before attempting all this, you might add some fuel injector cleaner to your fresh load of premium fuel and see if it wont clean itself, take care to do the math, the bike only holds 2.(something) gallons of gas, most bottles treat 10 gallons. keep us posted on your progress, there is plenty of experienced help here, we were all 17 and learning once.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/04/06 at 11:30:36

Just woke up, bike does have fresh fuel and fresh oil.

Oh and our gas up here is measured in litres, and I believe the tank holds something like 15 Litres.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Island_Biker on 07/04/06 at 12:25:20

According to my manual Fuel capacity including reserve is 10.5 L or 2.8 US gal.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/04/06 at 18:38:58

So I got the carb cleaner, and some square head screws to replace the crappy star heads.

Cleaned the carb out, but I think I should do it again.

It will still stall without the choke, but I can now open the throttle and rev it.

Should I rev the nuts out of it to clean it a bit more?

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Brewbrother on 07/04/06 at 18:57:39

Borgschulze wrote:

carb soaks are 72 hours minimum. try again.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/04/06 at 19:01:22

Oh wow! I don't think anyone told me that...

This Carb cleaner is in a spray can, I didn't buy the wrong stuff did I?

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Brewbrother on 07/04/06 at 19:20:27

Borgschulze wrote:

Oh wow! I don't think anyone told me that...

This Carb cleaner is in a spray can, I didn't buy the wrong stuff did I?

Just my opinion but sitting for 4 years means removing the carb and jets and immersing it in a carb cleaner bath. This should follow a cleaning with compressed air. Spray cans will have little effect when a bike has sat that long. Welcome to being a mechanic on a single cylinder, single carb, single coil bike. Your worries are few, I know you will understand later.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/04/06 at 19:46:53

So I guess I should rip the carb off again, spray the cleaner into all the holes on the inside, and let it sit overnight?

I'm very determined to get this bike running properly, especially since I am going to be the one riding it.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Brewbrother on 07/04/06 at 19:53:36

Borgschulze wrote:

carefully take the carb off. You need the rubber boots on the carbs. If you can't bathe the carbs in cleaner then as many cleanings as you can muster over sveral days with

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Brewbrother on 07/04/06 at 19:56:18

Brewbrother wrote:

carefully take the carb off. You need the rubber boots on the carbs. If you can't bathe the carbs in cleaner then as many cleanings as you can muster over sveral days with

of clearing the jet passageways with compressed air. If you can't do it on your own find a place and get it done. You won't be happy till thats done. Soory about the multiple posts. Shi*t happens.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/04/06 at 20:02:44

I can totally remove the carb from the rubber boots pretty easily.

Should I take it apart (Top, side, and bottom covers off) and fill up a jug or something big enough to put the carb in, and let it sit?

How much would it cost if I took it to a shop and got it cleaned, I know of a place where my father used to go before he started doing all his work himself, this place specializes in motorcycle repair and sales.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/05/06 at 15:59:55

The needle coming off of the slide says from what I can read, 15 16, there is a clamp type thing on the middle of 3 settings and it has 1 white spacer, if later I were to change the setting to fix the backfire, I would just move the clamp thing to a lower setting down the needle right?

I think I am already addicted to this bike... I haven't even ridden it yet and I want to tweak it, new exhaust, new signals, clean up the asthetics... it's so fun, moving me away from my already decked out computer addiction.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Reelthing on 07/05/06 at 16:34:15

an adjustable needle! - you bet you just move the c-clip up/down to rich'n/lean it

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/05/06 at 16:49:24

Reelthing wrote:

an adjustable needle! - you bet you just move the c-clip up/down to rich'n/lean it

I guess not everyone has this?

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Dynobob on 07/05/06 at 18:49:04

Borgschulze wrote:

Should I take it apart (Top, side, and bottom covers off) and fill up a jug or something big enough to put the carb in, and let it sit?

Absolutely. Strip the carb entirely and put only the metal parts into a vat of real carb cleaner. This is the only way to get it truely clean. Rinse with water and blow dry with compressed air. It might be wise to take it to a shop. The carb cleaner isn't cheap (the Gunk I buy from the auto parts is > $25). If you don't have an air compressor you can't blow it dry.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Dynobob on 07/05/06 at 18:53:52

Borgschulze wrote:

... if later I were to change the setting to fix the backfire, I would just move the clamp thing to a lower setting down the needle right?

You are correct. Moving the clip down raises the needle which makes the midrange richer. This is effectively the same thing as cutting down the spacer which you read so much about on these pages. Be sure to keep your white spacer in and move the clip down to richen the mixture.

Not all Savages have an adjustable needle - only the early models. The Dynojet jet kit comes with one as well.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/05/06 at 20:31:11

I think I might take the whole carb to the local bike shop and get him to clean it, I realize that this spray carb cleaner isn't really doing much...

Although it appears to be running much nicer, I think I should get it cleaned professionally, I don't have the tools to do this job.

If anyone is wondering, this is an 86' Savage if I haven't mentioned... the story behind it...

My father bought it for my mom about 10-12 years ago, from what I know, the "Harmonic Balancer" blew out of the front of the engine. My dad then apparently got a whole new engine for it, my mom only rode it a few times after that, then it sat for 4 years or so... so now my mom has given me the bike.

The bike currently has just over 29 thousand kilometers on it.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by lancer on 07/05/06 at 23:21:39

Ya'll are doing good, keep up the good work.

There are tiny passageways in the carb, and they are likely clogged, and that is what is giving you the problems. So soak it ... do the 3 day thing ...then blow out the holes with compressed air. If no compressed then find something very small that will go through the passageways ....CAREFULLY !! We do not want any damage. Then reassemble an test.

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/06/06 at 20:52:48

Ok, I re-cleaned it, didn't do the three day thing...

Talked my mom into it, drove it around the block a few times :)

After it warms up, it runs much much better, it still has some adjustments to be made, but it runs good enough to be driving it everyday. Still got some of that backfire.

Today was the first time I have rode the bike, and I tell you that it's fun. The only other motorcycle I have driven is an 80cc Suzuki dirtbike :)

Tires need some air, heh... getting soft, and I cleaned up the bike, polished it, it's nice and shiny, minus the rust spots from sitting I guess :(

As always, I shift down too quickly... so the back tire was squaking when I was coming to the stop signs :P

Thanks for the help guys, but I know, I will probably be back, or at least taking the carb off again and giving it a real cleaning... If it isn't broke, it's never been fixed!

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by azjay on 07/07/06 at 08:09:42

good for you! it might clean itself up, as you ride it and run more fuel through it. i know you hear it alot, (we all were 17 once) be safe, and dont over ride your abilities, congratulations

Title: Re: Runs, but stalls with added throttle.
Post by Borgschulze on 07/07/06 at 21:03:38

Well first thing is, I'm going to be going to a safety training course for my M1 lisence, that should be easy, my mom tells me they give you a 125cc bike to ride.

Can't wait to ride!

Something I forgot to mention is, the dirtiest part of the carb, was the needle, it had a brownish flat coloured residue on it, I cleaned that off so it was the normal colour again, I think that it what helped it the most.

I also moved the spacer clip down on the needle (same effect as shaving the spacer), after those two modifications, the bike ran much better.