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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> How fast do you think... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1150510716 Message started by Savage Librarian on 06/16/06 at 19:18:36 |
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Title: How fast do you think... Post by Savage Librarian on 06/16/06 at 19:18:36 Now, I'm not ordinarily very speed oriented. I like to take it slow. But I was sitting around and thinking... Some of y'all are getting fairly substantial power gains out of your Savage. My Savage, and a few others, have dropped the weight down to, or in some of our cases below, the 300 pound mark. I know that a number of y'all have topped 100mph. And occasionally people ask about top speed (although it's always seemed to me that if you were out looking for a fast bike, the Savage probably isn't for you). But I'm more wondering...how fast do you think we could get one to do? If we were to somehow magically come into posession of a brand new, straight off the showroom floor 2006 S40, we all pitched in (in this hypothetical situation), how fast could we get it? What mods would we make to get it there? How crazy could/would we get with it? |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by divecop on 06/16/06 at 19:54:05 SL: I am kinda with you...I think about going 75 or 80 and then I remember what someone once told me "don't go any faster than the speed you want to fall at". Therefore I stay around the 60mph mark and I still know I don't want to take a tumble at that speed either, but I also don't want to get run over by the cagers. ::) I definitely think my 06 could go much faster than 100mph, just not with me riding it. 8) |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by mickthelimey on 06/16/06 at 20:19:04 I guess you could start with high lift cams,turbo charger, big carb,high compression piston,remove the muffler and put on a megaphone,clip on handlbars,clubman seat, the last two don't make it go any faster it would just seem faster,and look cooler. There's my two cents worth,Mick |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Reelthing on 06/16/06 at 20:37:41 If speed is the game seems to me you need to open up the flow with the pipe, carb, and maybe a cam for a little more rpm - but a chain drive conversion would allow you to step up the ratio for longer legs. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by thumperclone on 06/16/06 at 23:06:57 got my o6 the first week of feb.im the ride it like you stole it break in school of thought..that first week got to over 85 (40 f no ice west colorado)on the I 70.. now... third or 4th pipe hd with partial baffle disc drilled,,dynojet stage one , k&n drop in and snorkel remove.. small suzuki (natnl) sport screen(from day one) 3200k on od 85 tops BUT i get there quicker and she screams SOOO much deeper... |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by azjay on 06/17/06 at 06:43:42 that depends if we are talking 1/4 mile or bonneville, with the big single, torque is abundant, so quick response is the trade off. are we limited to natural aspiration or do we get to stuff it? i think in any case, i think 150 mph is easily attainable, given enough room to stretch out. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by starmom on 06/17/06 at 07:00:41 The speed thing cracks me up, my hubby is getting his HD next week a l200, im like how fast do you really need to go? my thumper can go as fast as im gonna need her to go and I dont need l200cc to do it.... Im thinkin its a macho thing for him......no less than a HD will do and twice the price of my thumper...and this is the man that has never spent more than 500-l000 on a cage LOL Yes the HD are pretty, but my suzi is pretty too! |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Paladin on 06/17/06 at 08:49:23 mickthelimey wrote:
Last two do make it faster -- by enabling the hug the tank position and cutting a lot of drag. You'll also want a small fairing. It has always been my understanding that for top end speed you want horsepower, and for off the line acceleration you want torque. For horsepower you want lotsa small cylinders with high revs. For torque you want fewer and larger -- a Thumper. I tell people that when I drive/ride I am quick, not fast. I can generally, from a stopsign/light, hit the speed limit before or at least soon after clearing the intersection. I generally travel close to the speed limits, sometimes below. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by steelwolf on 06/17/06 at 09:37:11 Well SL, I think the way to maximize available speed would be what we are already doing here. Everyone of us nearly has done a mod that would help. Lightening of the bike as you mentioned is step one. By lightening the ride I mean getting rid of everything thats not needed. Rear pegs, belt cover, headlight, turn signals front and rear, tailight, fenders, rear brake parts, chrome engine covers, mirrors, horn, rear seat, rails and sissybar, shocks, and the airbox. All of it must go. Then once we finish the diet we do the carb work, the head work plus port and polish, new cam, sleave the jug, change the piston, change the pipe, the air cleaner, and the plug. Next we put on the nitrous kit. The smallest windscreen we can find tilted @ just the right angle to give maximum deflection with minimal resistance. Fill er up with gas. No time to skimp now, giver her the good stuff, 105 octane racing fuel. Ok now we're ready. Sit down, hit the starter, tuck in tight and hope like he|| you don't hit a dog. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Trippah on 06/18/06 at 12:28:11 Woof Woof. :D |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Trippah on 06/18/06 at 12:29:03 The last comment was from Abby my Newfie. She'd hate to hurt a human. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Banger on 06/19/06 at 05:09:07 I think, for purposes of the average tweaker and tuner, that the chain mod would easily gain you the most speed for your trouble. The belt drive has you stuck in one final-drive ratio, no matter how much work you do to lighten the bike or make the big single run faster. So I'd say convert it to a chain (as much as I hate the stupid things) first, and then do the rest of the mods. Where was it I saw pictures of someone racing a Savage? It was all gutted, chopped and stuff. I think it had clip-ons, too! He raced club races with it and "run-what-ya-brung" style races. And looked better than anyone else doing it, might I add! ;D Regards, Banger ======= |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by YonuhAdisi on 06/19/06 at 13:34:29 It would be tricky but I would also change the transmission gear ratios depending on if you want quick or fast on whether you want to gear down or up. I once had a Mercury Cougar that had such high gears that I could wrap the speedo almost all the way back to the 20mph number and the top speed (according to the speedo) was 120mph. The darn thing sounded like an airplane when it was at max speed. So regearing the tranny, and regear the final drive. (from tranny to rear wheel) would definately get you speed or torque depending on which way you gear it. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Savage Librarian on 06/19/06 at 13:40:24 You know, this is almost tempting... To get ahold of an older Savage, rebuild it with the help of everyone here with top speed being the sole purpose behind it, see if we can't figure out who our best (and probably craziest) rider here is, and see what we can, collectively, make a Savage do. It'd be interesting to see a Savage roaring away at Bonneville, wouldn't it? |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by YonuhAdisi on 06/19/06 at 13:56:43 Savage Librarian wrote:
I'ld be up for that. Sounds fun. ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by vroom1776 on 06/19/06 at 14:43:42 See also Lancer's "Pics of Parts" thread in the marketplace. Needs bigger valves. He's working on it. I'm guessing w/ a lot of head work, 97 mm, 2mm taller piston, reground cam, hot carb, hot exhaust, ceramic coated cyl, you could maybe get 65 ponies. That's a lot. One could also shave down the flywheel, depending on what you wanted, HP or torque (I believe that a lighter flywheel = less HP, more tq... not sure though). It MAY be possible to stroke the engine, but I doubt it. Oen might be able to get away with a 2 mm stroke, but that's it, and it wouldn't work w/ a taller piston. Unless you had a brand new head designed and made... BIG $$$. W/ the turbo or super, youy can really only run a couple of lbs w/o exploding the engine, I believe. and as far as weight goes, -7 lbs = + 1 HP, roughly. go on a diet. Peopel have even talked about using titanium bolts for to save weight. You could probably save about 5 lbs. maybe. Rip off the front brake. Smaller and aluminum everything. Marchensini (SP?) rims for about 1k $each. narrower rear tire.... it never ends... until you start sanding down the frame. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by steelwolf on 06/19/06 at 15:09:05 2 words... carbon fiber. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by vroom1776 on 06/19/06 at 15:15:26 steelwolf wrote:
So, not only how fast can we make it, but how fast can we empty our wallets? ;) |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by red2k1 on 06/19/06 at 16:42:40 Quote:
Well, maybe yes; maybe no. I know Harley makes drive pulleys plus and minus two teeth from OEM for some of their machines. Haven't found one specifically for the Savage yet, but a machine shop is always an option. I know I would like to go two fewer teeth on mine. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by torque on 06/19/06 at 16:45:10 a lighter flywheel is for more hp and a heavier one is more torque,thats why a 2 cylinder diesel tractor has a 200 pound flywheel. the savage might hit 120 if u ported the head and had a custom conecting rod made,but i dont think it'd work. dont waste your money on trying to make a single cylinder go fast,spend it on guns and girls ;D |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by babbalou on 06/19/06 at 19:39:29 I just had an odd thought; (happens a lot) what if Suzuki put the DR650 motor in future Savages/S40? Puts out 9.9 more horsepower & 2.7 more ft/pounds of torque, according to the dyno at MotorcycleConsumer News. Air cooled & carbureted. Could be an interesting project. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Lion on 06/19/06 at 21:58:18 My top speed is 100km/h :D Remember mine is a 400cc. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by klx650sm2002 on 06/20/06 at 03:06:27 I think the chain conversion is a good thing, on it's own it would give the Savage quite a bit more speed. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Banger on 06/20/06 at 04:46:43 babbalou wrote:
...Aaaaaand it's got a chain final-drive system. I've thought of this a lot, myself. Is it water-cooled? I've seen a number of dual-purpose and enduro bikes that are. This would make for a cooler-running, and thus more powerful, engine. Wonder how easy (or difficult :-/ ) it might be to transplant the DR650 engine into the LS650 frame...hmmm... And right on with the thinner tires / lose weight thing. That's precisely the biggest gain for performance reasons, right there. But even if she weighs less, the engine will only rev so far in factory setup before she blows. Ported heads sounds costly and also sounds like a reliability issue, but since we're talking hypotheticals here, it'd likely help a little. I still think the chain drive gives you the easiest way to max your top speed for your given horsepower, so do that first and then tweak the engine to the maximum of your abilities. Regards, Banger ======= |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Banger on 06/20/06 at 04:47:43 Nevermind on the water-cooled. I didn't read the message well enough. Silly me! Still sounds like a tempting idea, though, transplanting one of those bad boys. Regards, Banger ======= |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 06/20/06 at 17:06:24 I like a very efficient machine, one that runs well and is spirited feeling. The Savage seems to me to be limited mostly by the head/valves. It is designed to be an easygoing economy machine. Changing the carb and exhaust and cam are the easiest and least expensive things to do that make a significant difference in performance. Throw in a good cylinder coating and it will PURR . With these few changes and a fine state of tune, the engine will make enough power to make it to 100 or so with the stock gearing. I do hope to get the head redone because that should help to release another 10 hp or so...at least that's my wild guess. Anyway, with that added capability it might be able to pull 115-120 mph with a gearing change. For me, I would just do a pulley swap to get the gearing up a bit, it would be the cheapest way by far to do it. My personal goal is not top speed, I am just trying to make it as efficient as possible, which does result in hp and torque...but the most usable type. I use top speed, or a 0-60 or 1/4 mile time as a way to measure progress. Just as important is the handling capability and that is where a fork brace and heavier oil will improve the front end performance, or a complete replacement may be on order if you want the next level of performance. Then too, the rear shocks need replacing very badly if you do any harder riding than very easy and slow cruising. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by klx650sm2002 on 06/21/06 at 03:15:03 What's up with the DR 750/800 ? Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by vroom1776 on 06/21/06 at 13:29:36 and after melting my electrical... and hoping my ignitor is not broken... I was thinking about an aftermarket timing unit. At present, there is no way to adjsut the ignition timing. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Jim_R on 06/22/06 at 07:21:14 Wow its hard to imagine that bike going 120 let alone 150. i do believe the chain conversion is a good place to start for top speed. Oversizing it would be very min help because an extra 29 cc wont make a huge difference unless it has a more agressive cam, higher compression piston, port work. I think the key to better overall preformance would be making it fuel injection. I think that would make a very substantial difference and make it easier to turbo the engine. The only bad thing about turbochargin the savage is that it is air cooled. The turbo would have to be oil cooled and u might want an oil cooler. Could u mount a smaller RX7 intercooler to it for the turbo air as well? Seems like it would be alot of fun but a HUGE waste of money. I dont see how the bike could be stable in any of those speeds and it would be too dangerous. I think its more likely to blow up and kill someone than to break 120 mph and still be a daily driver. I think it would be more fun to mount a fz6 engine on a go cart. 98hp .. woo woo. fun |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Savage Librarian on 06/22/06 at 08:37:47 Jim_R wrote:
Yup. Those be my thoughts exactly. Which is why I like to keep it hypothetical. I'm spending enough keeping 2 bikes going, I don't need a third that I'd be completely rebuilding! But man, it's fun to think about, isn't it? Taking a bike that is really not intended for those speeds and making it capable of it... I suppose if I wanted a fast bike, I would have bought a fast bike. Instead, I have 2 cruisers. But the challenge of making a 650 thumper go that fast...sounds like fun. The building, engineering, and set up more so than the riding, I think. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by serowbot on 06/22/06 at 08:41:03 I don't feel like I run out of power before I run out of gearing, so I plan on going to a bit taller tire when it gets to replacement time. I'd like to think I could do the ton if I wanted. I wouldn't do it of course. Right. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 06/22/06 at 09:19:11 I have not found any source for a high compression piston, so the only reasonable way to increase the compression is to remove material from the head or cylinder. That would certainly perk up the engine. I would like to go from the stock 8.5 to about 10:1. More than that and I think there would be possible issues with octane levels in the fuel. Personally, I prefer a bike with just enough power to pull about 90% of top gear. That way you get to use virtually all of the power most of the time...and that is fun. Power enough to take you to 100, or maybe a little more, is about all that is really needed. But I do like to have lots of torque to go with the HP so that can have it really usable. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by klx650sm2002 on 06/23/06 at 05:22:45 Hey Lancer What squish clearance do you intend runnin', I've not read anything about the Savage but I was told 0.040" squish for the SR500,that seams a bit tight to me. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by JerryAssburger on 06/23/06 at 07:04:25 You'd / We'd all have to work within the physics of the design.... 6500 rpm redline is very close to maximum safe piston speed for an engine with a 94mm stroke. The cooling fins are set up for an engine that makes 30-40 hp, so it would need an oil cooler to compensate for the extra HP/heat you'll be generating. Then, of course, everyone has mentioned the gearing, which is short even with the stock 30hp output. I've heard of people routinely getting 65-70 hp out of KTM 650 thumpers (flirting with the ragged edge), which I'm sure could be done with the Suzi. Aerodynamics will help, of course... but how far do you go with that and still call it a Savage? A friend and I have ridden a couple of times on the way home from work- (he has a HD 1200 Sporty with light mods) and we do the old, "roll on from 50 in top gear thing", and up 'til 70, I'm within 10 feet of his back wheel (look of shock on his face) and then above 70 he's gone. This is a very respectable showing for a bike that is basically Suzi's take on the Rebel 450... Think about it. It's designed to be a Good-looking, easy-to maintain, easy to ride, just-enough-performance bike that won't financially scare people away from bikes. I'm happy with mine. I'll be even happier when I know for sure that running it at 65 mph down an interstate one tank at a time isn't pushing it too hard. Any opinions on that? I plan on a Roadtrip to and from Colorado (2000 mikes total). |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Banger on 06/23/06 at 07:45:13 I'd bet she'll handle it with aplomb, Jerry. Good on you with the Sportster, too. I did the same thing with a random Honda 1100 cruiser the other day. He rolled on at about 55 thinking he'd lose me by 70, and I was right there with him. Perhaps out of fear of a ticket (or perhaps out of respect, as I'd like to believe), he stopped accellerating at 75 and we rode together from that point. He turned off a few miles before me and gave me the ol' motorcyclist wave/point thing. Good feeling. Oil cooler, check. I still think the DR650 powerplant is begging to be put in the Savage frame. And I'd think any mods made to a Savage powerplant would likely do just as much if not more good on the more-powerful DR engine. Regards, Banger ====== |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by vroom1776 on 06/23/06 at 10:02:28 I think the problem witht he DR 650 engine is that it's too tall to fit in the savage frame. The oil cooler is a good idea. Having the cylinder ceramic coated would also help cooling a great deal, but it's already been mentioned. As the tank is off my bike right now, I was looking at the head. If we had a new head completely redesigned... well there's about 15 mm of room between the top of the stock head and my frame. Then Lancer could have oversized and HC pistons made. I agree w/ the 10:1 CR, or maybe 11:1 at the most. We could probably/maybe stroke it too, then. To keep it's square nature, a 97 mm piston would then require a 3 mm stroke. Also, while I was looking at the head... a "lot" of weight there could come off. Like the bolt holes that hold the headcovers on... soem stuff left over from the manufacturing process. Simplify the electical system. We don't really need the decomp solenoid. A manual lever will work fine... if you know what you are doing. I think you could get the darn thing down to maybe 250 lbs or so. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by JerryAssburger on 06/23/06 at 11:11:26 Uh,ohhh. The tinkerer in me has awoken from its slumber..... For an oil cooler, how about this? I THINK that the chamber behind the oil filter cover is filled with oil when it's running, right? If someone were to mill a new cover that was about 1/2 inch thicker and about 2-3 inchest taller, and then mill horizontal cooling fins in it (front to back), you'd have a pretty effective air/oilcooler with just a bit of added ugliness, depending on how you finished it. I don't know what the inside of the cover looks like, or how hard it would be to duplicate but its a start. Here is a quicky drawing of what I'm thinking of... Since aluminum disipates heat so well, I think this would work out pretty good. Oil flows behind the cover/ air flows outside the cover. What do you think? http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/5614/oilcover4ys.gif |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Banger on 06/24/06 at 05:02:22 Not bad. I think we'd better be moving the footpegs for aerodynamics, anyway. Thus, that wouldn't get in the way. I would think you could buy an aftermarket radiator-like oil-cooler and just strap it to the downtube of the frame, though, right? Regards, Banger ====== |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Ed_L. on 06/24/06 at 12:03:15 I like that idea about using a different cover over the oil filter that is vented to act like an oil cooler. Instead of making a complete new cover wouldn't it be possible to take a thick piece of aluminium with fins cut into it and attach it to the existing oil filter cover. If it was machined right you could use longer oil filter cover bolts to mount it with, like a giant heat sink. I just checked and the cover isn't quite flat, it's got a bit of a curve to it so both sides need to be machined but it still might work. With a remote oil cooler where would you hook up and return? I was thinking that it would be possible to tap into the oil filter cover and return at the head. How about running the oil into an external filter by blocking off the stock filter with some sort of adapter that allows you to pull the oil out of the cover and return it to the spot where the stock filter sits. If there was a way to redirect the oil then you can do away with the stock filter, install an aftermarket one and hook up a cooler all in one shot. Hot darn I bet it could be done, can see how to do it and how to make it work. Was over at the technical section checking out the oil filter thread and it looks like there is enough metal on the top side of the oil filter cover to be drilled and tapped for oil fittings so the lines could come out of the top of the cover. Next step is a prototype, anybody out there have a oil filter cover for cheep that I can bastardize? Don't care what it looks like ;D. Please PM me if you have one, Thanks, Ed |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 06/24/06 at 12:36:18 If you have a copy of the Suzuki shop manual you will find that there are in/out ports already tapped into the case's that can be used to attach an oil cooler. One oil cooler made for HD's that can be had for only about $75 is available. It has 2 legs with fins and comes in 2 versions...one with the legs parallel and the other with the legs in a slight V configuration. It will be relatively easy to adapt it to the Savage and I would like to do that prior to the Sturgis ride in August. We shall see if there are enough funds to get it done before then. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Ed_L. on 06/24/06 at 12:50:24 Hey, I didn't know that, spent all afternoon scribbling ideas for a adapter :-/. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by mickthelimey on 06/25/06 at 00:50:19 You guys must have seen "The Worlds Fastest Indian" seems to me all that guy did was to have a huge rear sprocket,that's why he needed a good long push before he got that bugger rolling,once rolling he took 4 miles before he engaged 4th gear,and just hung on,you could only do it at the salt flats,thats the only place with the room,chain drive would be a must. Mick |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 06/25/06 at 07:32:01 I took a couple of pic's of the page in the shop manual (pg 4-10) to show the oil system routing and the 2 ports for attaching the lines "to" and "from" the oil cooler. Adding an oil cooler would also enable adding an external oil filter as well. Doing all of that would increase the total amount of oil in the system, make it much cooler, and keep it much cleaner. I would likely cost less than $200 for the whole setup. This would greatly enhance the life,duribility, even some power increase of the engine since the greatest aging problem for an engine is the junk in the oil that causes most of the wear. Of course, the running temp would be reduced significantly. Overview of oil route within engine. http://images1.snapfish.com/347447863%7Ffp342%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D32338747%3C74%3A4nu0mrj Close-up of ports where IN & OUT lines would be attached. I highlighted the oil route as it would leave the engine case on the right, go through the oil cooler, and then re-enter the case on the bottom. The ports are already there so it would be an easy job. With the thread/bolt size of the ports the lines can be made to fit any cooler that would be desired. http://images1.snapfish.com/347447863%7Ffp344%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D32338747%3C%3A6%3B3nu0mrj |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Ed_L. on 06/25/06 at 08:16:33 Thanks Lancer for the diagrams, it's a lot better than what I was planning. Drilling and tapping the oil cover for oil lines would make the engine look a little like a Frankenstein. Don't have the Suzuki manual for the Savage, only Clymer's. Extra oil capacity and more cooling is always a plus for any engine. If you get that Harley oil cooler hooked up take pictures, we all would love to see it. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Banger on 06/25/06 at 08:58:18 Yes, definitely get pics if you do this. And if it increases life of the engine, I'd be tempted to follow in your footsteps and do it myself. I always have my concerns since I'm riding the thing half the year at 65-70 mph. Trying to scrape together enough funds right now to do the K&N and re-jet, which will help, but the oil cooler sounds like it would be far more beneficial to the life of the engine than the carb rejet alone. Got pics of the Harley oil coolers? Regards, Banger ====== |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by babbalou on 06/25/06 at 11:22:09 I've wondered how much cooler the oil would be if the header pipe didn't run right in front of the crankcase, where that scooped out place is. Not that I've had overheating issues on my stock engine, just considering longevity. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 06/25/06 at 18:47:47 This is the type of filter I was thinking of using...two verions available...the pics and prices are from Jireh Cycles catalog. (www.jirehcycles.com) They have the best deals anywhere. If the measurements work out I want to use the V version for my bike. Parallel version... $49.95 ... part # 73-50 http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?parta~showpic~Z5Z5Z50000135a~Z5Z5Z5AADUK~Z5Z5Z5~Z5Z5Z5~Z5Z5Z5 V version ... $59.95 ... part # 73-55 http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?parta~showpic~Z5Z5Z50000135a~Z5Z5Z5ABADS~Z5Z5Z5~Z5Z5Z5~Z5Z5Z5 |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Banger on 06/26/06 at 05:45:23 Aye, I like the Vee better, but it's not adjustable at all for angle's sake. Seems it would be horrible to spend a chunk of change on it and find out it doesn't line up all pretty like it is in the picture. Still a capital idea, as the Brits might say. So're you gonna do it? *Starsky and Hutch voice* "Doooo it!" Regards, Banger ====== |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Banger on 06/26/06 at 06:09:11 Hey check this out...what the heck? Sorta looks like it might be an oil-cooling device a'la Jerry's idea. http://www.ls-650.de/cpg132/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=455 This coming from a German photo directory. The Germans are hardcore about their Savages. Some very good ideas are coming from over there. Regards, Banger ======= |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 06/26/06 at 06:16:04 It all depends on the money. With the trip to Oklahoma for my brothers funeral, an untimely death of a kitchen appliance that needed to be replaced, a badly behaving septic system that needs attention, and a few other odds and ends ... plus trying to get stuff together for the Strugis ride ... it just makes it hard to carve out the money for the extra things I want to do. I pulled out my Jireh catalog...page 8-76... The parallel cooler is: Length 9" width 3 3/4" Tube dia. 1 1/8" V Version Top to bottom 10 1/2" Top width 4 1/8" Tube dia. 1 1/8" **No dimension given for bottom width Banger wrote:
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by JerryAssburger on 06/26/06 at 14:38:16 I'm back... Stupid work! Takes up all my time...! Lancer, THX for the info! Any sort of tranny-oil cooler could be adapted to the engine, as long as it doesn't restrict flow any. I think since the engine is a roller bearing design, it doesn't run at very high oil pressure. This really opens up posibilities.... Oil light, cooler, better filter.... Again, Lancer THX for the info. Now just need to find a place to mount a filter down there.... |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 06/26/06 at 19:19:00 All in a day's work ... you are welcome. By the way, if your job is getting in the way of doing more important things like riding and wrenching on the bike, then you may need to do the thing and retire early. I retired early, though it was not my idea at the time it has worked out fairly well. I went in to work one day with some paperwork the doc gave me and they told me to go home and not to come back. One of those "it's been nice knowing you but get the ____ out of here", and there I was. That was about 15 years ago. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by JerryAssburger on 06/26/06 at 19:43:16 Crud, I'll bet it was panic-city when you heard that. I'm glad it's working out for you. I wonder what the thinking was behind those oil passage/ports? There's a passage that connects the two; but I don't think it'd affect much in the way of cooling, but for full-oil filtering, that passage would have to be blocked to force ALL the oil thru the remote filter. Also, to save pace, if a remote auto spin-on filter was used, that would increase the cooling surface also. An oil cooler might not be needed. This really opens up possibilities.... It's on my "tinker with" list. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Lion on 06/27/06 at 04:43:28 Today I talked to a man with a single cylinder Marauder 250cc. I asked him what is the top speed his bike can go. He answered 'about 120km/h'. darn! Mine is 400cc and the top speed is 100km/h. I don't want to drive fast but sometimes a 120-130km/h would be great. On highways EVERY little rollcagers overtakes me :( So, why is that big difference? P.s.: I searched for that bike on bikepics.com. It was a GZ 250. It is such a shame Savage is slower... :-[ |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by 911radioman on 06/27/06 at 06:18:08 Well, I used to own a GZ and top end on mine was about 82 and it took it a while to get to that 82 as well. ;D |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Lion on 06/27/06 at 06:36:35 82 km/h or 82 mph (which is 132 km/h)? If it is 82 km/h with a 250cc then what the Savage 400cc's top speed should be? At least 120 km/h (75 mph) as I think. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Island_Biker on 06/27/06 at 09:41:17 Lion wrote:
Last year I drove a 1985 Honda Rebel 250 and on a long enough stretch, and if I pedalled really really hard, I could hit 120 km/hr. My step son has the bike now, and he can do that as well. I've had the Savage there too - there's likely more, but I don't want it. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by 911radioman on 06/27/06 at 09:45:32 Lion wrote:
82 mph. I don't do kph. ;D |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Lion on 06/27/06 at 11:04:55 911radioman wrote:
Never mind I CAN convert it to kmh ;) Anyway it is really great from a 250 bike I think. A little comparison follows: Type: Suzuki GZ 250 Marauder Cylinder capacity: 250 cc (about) Top speed: 82 mph (by 911radioman) Type: Suzuki Savage LS400 Cylinder capacity: 396 cc Top speed: 62 mph (my bike) Again: what causes the quite big difference? Maybe I have done something wrong with those tune-ups (see my signature)... |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by 911radioman on 06/27/06 at 11:25:53 I truthfully wouldn't have the slightest idea as to why. The GZ was my first motorcycle, and I know top end on it was 82. Over on the GZ board, some of those guys have trouble hitting 70. I do know this. As the cc's get smaller, a lot of variables come into play, such as the terrain you're riding, rider size and weight, state of engine tune, etc. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Lion on 06/27/06 at 13:09:48 911radioman wrote:
Come on, 70 still beats my 62! Terrain: flat city concrete road. Size: average. Weight: average (OK, a little heavier than that). But the GZ is NOT a cockroach rocket like a Kawa Ninja, it IS a chopper/cruiser. Oh never mind I will find out something... Nitro or so ;D When I bought my MC at least 3 people told me "You will change it in 2 years to a bigger one". I don't want to. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lagagnon on 06/27/06 at 16:35:04 I must be honest and say I find too much speed actually scary. I've hit 120km/hr and that is more than fast enough for me. On the highway I stick to 100-110 km/hr. Anything else is asking for trouble if you want my humble opinion....so the point is moot. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Banger on 06/28/06 at 06:20:10 lancer wrote:
Lancer, How much extra oil do you reckon would need added to the stock amount at changes? Also, I was staring at Zook yesterday (as I often find myself doing at work) and began wondering if having a new oil filter cover machined with fins in it would have somewhat of a cooling effect. Sort of like Jerry's idea, only without the height. Just take the stock filter cover to a machine shop and say "make this, but add an inch to it...then put <i>cooling fins</i> on it." Dunno if it would do much to cool the oil since it would still be right there on the engine and all that heat around the header pipe, but I'm just letting my brain bounce around about it some. Otherwise, I'd think those aftermarket coolers are good-looking stuff and might be mounted to the frame easily enough even if the dimensions don't match up too well. Regards, Banger ====== |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Ed_L. on 06/28/06 at 16:08:46 Here is my idea for a remote oil filter hookup, been working on it for a couple of days and think this will work. Take a round chunk of aluminium or brass a little smaller in diameter than the stock oil filter and turn one end down to fit in the engine where the tip of the filter with the "O" ring sits. Run a large hole thru that end about 3/4 of the way into the piece of metal. Drill and tap a hole into the side of the adapter so it meet the large hole. Run a line from the side hole in the adapter out thru the side of the oil filter cover using compression fittings and a short piece of brake tubing. For the second line just drill and tap a second hole in the top edge of the oil filter cover and install whatever fitting you are using. This design replaces the oil filter with an adapter that runs all the oil out thru the side of the oil filter cover to an external filter and cooler and returns it to the engine. I don't think it would be hard to machine up the adapter, already found a round chunk of brass that should do the trick. I'm just trying to figure out which way the oil flows, out of the cover into the filter or out of the filter into the cover, anybody out there know offhand?. What do you all think, will it work or not? The next couple days I'll be looking for fittings and and stuff for the mod, if it comes together I'll take pictures for everybody. ;D, This is a itch that needs scratching. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by torque on 06/28/06 at 16:31:57 y'all are crazy trying to make the savage fast is like trying to polish a terd ::) |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Ed_L. on 06/28/06 at 17:13:07 Just pullled the oil filter cover and there just isn't enough room for an adapter. The only way I could see to hook up a remote oil cooler/filter would to be to thread the oil ports going in and out of the sidecase. Then you wouldn't need the cover at all. Good to see you are still around Torque, your post made me LOL ;D |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 06/28/06 at 20:29:15 Sounds like ya'll are trying to make a lot of extra work. The IN and OUT ports for the oil system are already in the case ... just use those. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by JerryAssburger on 07/04/06 at 23:21:39 Hi- Me again, throwing in my half cent's worth... I was thinking an oil pressure gauge would be slick to add to the Savage, but most oil-ps gauges have too high of a scale to be effective. (The Savage operates at a fairly low pressure) But- you can order a Fuel Pressure gauge 0-15lbs and use it with the appropriate fittings! I've seen them in the JC catalog for $29! Hope this helps the cause. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by vroom1776 on 07/13/06 at 12:22:52 I'm thinking something like part # 1 for an oil cooler. This is from a yamaha roadliner. No easy to get at in/out ports on this particular part, though. $200 new, too. :P http://www.bikebandit.com/PartsBandit/Assets/schematics/Yamaha/YA20060000003912.gif |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by vroom1776 on 07/13/06 at 14:25:12 One thing I'm not too sure about, in the blue circle below. Wouldn't the oil just flow in the direction of the blue arrow I've added? I don't see a good way to plug that passage to get the oil to go the direction we want. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/vroom1776/Oil_3.jpg |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by vroom1776 on 07/13/06 at 14:39:56 Ah, here we go: http://img.jpcycles.com/zoom/b28416de-2889-41df-b8aa-e2f1454f6298.jpeg from here: here (http://www.jpcycles.com/productgroup.aspx?GID=4bd227f2-3226-4b19-851a-4d41f1751627) |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 07/13/06 at 23:52:18 For a basic oil cooler kit that is about as good as it gets. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Kropatchek on 07/14/06 at 02:36:29 vroom1776 wrote:
Sorry to break in this conversation ! The installation of an oilcooler connected to the ports suggested by Lancer won't work. If you study the diagram more carefully you seen that the arrow on the left is a pressure that also points Down, hence both connection will be pressurized and no flow will pass the cooler. Option: The pressureport connection and the fillopening or drainport ( with proper adaptors) Greetz Kropatchek 8) Greetz Kropatchek |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 07/14/06 at 10:26:30 It looked like the oil was coming out toward the upper port on the right, then because the port is closed off, the oil takes a lateral turn toward the side of the case, and then turns up toward the oil filter. I understand your thoughts about both sides (or ports) being under pressure, I had not thought about it that way earlier. However, I still think that oil would flow through a cooler if mounted to these ports. Even with the pressure on both sides, there would still be some oil drawn up by the flow of oil to the filter. Looking at the diagram in the book there is a disc shape drawn in the lateral passageway, and I am unsure of its' significance. One way valve? This passageway is shown to be the oil bypass for the filter, according to the Lub. system diagram on the preceeding page. I will check with the shop mech about the possible use of these ports. Why else would they even be in the case, if not for a cooler.? |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by vroom1776 on 07/14/06 at 11:43:39 Lancer, Is Torque's old crank case in good enough shape to determine if this is possible? |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 07/14/06 at 18:43:04 I will look tomorrow ... not sure just now but I need to pull it out since I have been asked about the flywheel by another member and have yet to check for them. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Rawhide on 07/14/06 at 19:31:20 Has anyone checked on the auto. trans. coolers that N.A.P.A. sells? I put the biggest one they have on my Dodge pickup couple years ago and it was less than $50. At that time I think they had 2 sizes smaller. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by JerryAssburger on 07/15/06 at 02:07:29 Hey all! I still think Lancer is on the right track. Looking at the oil path from pump to filter housing, it's pretty direct. Unplugging and connecting the the two threaded plugs adds an additional path, with the same beginning and end. You would get some flow through it, but without plugging or modifying the area within the blue circle, the oil would tend towards its original path. I think the oval or disk is an illustration of the oil path going through from one casting to the next. (separate crankcase and filter housings?) Lets just say for example my guessing is right..... (usually NOT) ...if someone were to add an oil cooler and it wasn't elevated too high or restrictive, a bit less that half of the oil would be cooled, while the remainder scoots through the original path. This is probably not a bad thing.... The original oiling isn't altered, so the system will be up to pressure almost as quickly as without the cooler. AND even if only 30% finds it's way through the cooler, that still adds much more cooling capacity to a bike that was doing "okay" without it. I still think its a win-win improvement,and it can't hurt. I seriously hope to try it soon. Those of us in the hotter climes definitly need all the help we can get. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Colin_KC on 07/15/06 at 02:44:23 Back on topic, I've had my savage up to @ 160kmh (stoopid metric speed, just about 100mph in real money) 'course, that's downhill with a tailwind & a loooong stretch & the speedo prolly ain't accurate, but... ...100mph & I'm happy to call it that! ;) |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Banger on 07/16/06 at 15:51:21 Yarr, word has it the speedo isn't that accurate once you're into the extralegal speed range. I normally run 67-70 on the local four-lane highway (65 mph limit) and it's pretty much the flow of traffic which I'm left assuming is at the speed limit. Then when I see a THP patrol car sitting in the median, I still can't help but slow down to an indicated 65 mph...and all the other vehicles gain ground on me. Oh well. Better safe than sorry! I look forward to seeing how this oil cooler thing goes if you're gonna do it, Jerry. The issue with the piping seems to be a serious crux though. Regards, Banger ====== |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Kropatchek on 07/17/06 at 12:23:27 I still have to disagree with you Lancer and JerryAssburger. Bothe are pressure ports and there will be no floww between them. As for this question from Lancer: Quote: I will check with the shop mech about the possible use of these ports. Why else would they even be in the case, if not for a cooler.? Unquote. Remember the predesessor of the Savage: the 400 cc Tempter? Cafe racer style? It does not have the extensions to the frame for the footrest. The bottom plug is to drain the oilfilter housing and the othe, sticking forward the pressure test port. Greetz Kropatchek 8) |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 07/17/06 at 19:53:47 I spent some time studying the cases yesterday and am confident of my statement. They may have designed those plugs for a drain and test port, but if you connect them together with just a short line ... or a longer one with a cooler in between, there will be SOME FLOW THROUGH THE LINE.. It may not be a lot of flow, but there will be some. The oil is now flowing through the one passageway identified in the pic and if a second passageway is created then the oil will also flow through that as well. It may only be 1/3 of what the first line flows, but it will flow. There is no other way for it to go. It will not be static, the oil will move on up into the filter through both doorways. The oil pump has pressurized the oil just prior to the passageways and it will force the oil through both lines. It will not back up and stop the flow to the second line because the oil will go up to the filter instead of down into the second line. Sorry friend, no offense, but that is what will happen. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Banger on 07/18/06 at 05:13:34 What we need here is for somebody to hurry up and try this. ...Because I'm too chicken to be the first! ;D How about modifying the drain port and fill opening, as suggested earlier by Kropatchek? You'd need some sort of nipple fitting on both ports so that you could attach a hose, but that should be easy enough to come up with, aye? Regards, Banger ======= |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by thumperclone on 07/18/06 at 09:42:05 i have an oil cooler (ada racing ithink)that was on my ct 70 clone when i had a modified engine..the motor is a horz. thumper .the kit came with banjo fittings, lines, and a new cam cover plate with a different oil path milled in to force oil to the cooler then back to the end of the cam..the top of the cooler was higher than the highest point of the head ,it worked fine.. with lines and cooler the system took apx 3 ozs more oil so the dip stick read over full when the oil drained back down...maybe b4 next oil change will go to the hydralic shop and have some fittings and lines fabbed( if my money tree decides to fruit this year)it cant hurt in these 100f days..... |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 07/18/06 at 10:47:04 An excellent idea you have brought to the discussion. It would be easy to create a blocking plug for the short horizontal passageway, thereby forcing the oil to flow through an oil cooler. Now I am wondering whether the additional oil which would need to be added to the system would interfer with the engine during start, since it would drain down to the sump in the bottom of the case after shut-down. Perhaps if the oil cooler were positioned level with the sump then that would not be a problem. Mount the cooler directly to the bottom of the frame maybe? That would work, eh? If mounted like that then a skid plate would be necessary to protect the cooler though. Hmm. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by JerryAssburger on 07/18/06 at 17:27:42 Man, are we all Armchair Oil Coolers or what? Hahahaha! Just kidding. I LOVE engine theory. Here comes my worthless 2 cents.... I'm thinking that unless the engine is raced, run flat out or under severe stress, a person would probably want the oil to get up to temperature, just not overly hot. I think even if only 1/3 of the flow goes through the cooler, it'll still be a really good thing. On a somewhat related experience, I had a car with auto-trans... when it needed a bigger radiator, I Assburgered it by putting a radiator with no tranny cooler and then put an aftermarket cooler on in its place. That tranny NEVER got any hotter than hot bathwater! I was all proud of myself until a friend who repairs trannies says that while overheating the oil is bad; too cool of oil won't lubricate as well and still not be a good thing. The circuit is supposed to get to at least engine coolant temp (175F) to work right. Sooooooo.... That little bypass port will help the engine get up to temperature quicker at low-load speeds, and as you're blazing down the freeway, the oil cooler will be doing its thing. I will try it, but I'm still Baby-Stepping these mods. My "improvements" usually end up being anything but. My Savage is my "Family Car" so I gotta be careful! |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 07/18/06 at 19:22:08 I called the Suzuki dealership here in my area and talked witht the service manager Shaw, who talked to his head mech Dave, both of whom are afraid to commit. They did a word dance around the entire room in fine fashion and ended up where they started ... eh? This was the first time in 6 years that Shaw failed to answer a question of mine, and it was a bit disappointing. I believe they were doing the LIABILITY TWO-STEP. You know that dance, right? Yes, I'm sure you do. I think this is going to require a face to face, in the room alone, swearing not to breath a word to any other customers and signing a "non suit pact"... then maybe I can get a straight answer. Or perhaps I need to talk with an independant shop, where there is no liability to worry about. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Banger on 07/18/06 at 21:17:24 JerryAssburger wrote:
Awesome. I can sorta relate, although I have a Nissan pickup that seldom gets driven through nearly three of the four seasons...it's the "backup vehicle" I guess. At any rate, it's hard to make myself too anxious to try something this immense and touchy, since it might mess with reliability. Perhaps we should take our case to Suzuki R&D and see if they would consider making future S40s with an oil cooler? They're putting oil cooler on all their larger C-series bikes now, from what I've seen. They must understand the cult following this little bike has! If they realize that, then maybe a unified voice calling for improvements on the engine (especially in the form of an oil-cooler since it doesn't cause more pollution and is a win-win more power-more reliability modification) would make sense to someone at the ol' home office. Regards, Banger ======= |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 07/19/06 at 06:12:26 Absolutely. I have sent suzuki US messages before about upgrading the Savage. I need to go find their email address now, I had it here somewhere before, it was under the ................ I am getting in deep here ... too much stuff ... will get back when I find it. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/20/06 at 03:46:34 http://www.batinc.net/images/thermo3.gif Hey Guys what do you think of that, it's an oil thermostat, put it between the engine and the cooler and it returns oil to the engine bypassing the cooler untill the engine is up to temp. Pretty cool ! Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/20/06 at 08:08:23 'stat details at http://www.batinc.net/thermos.htm Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by JerryAssburger on 07/20/06 at 08:42:06 Totally Cool! (Pardon the pun) That is perfect for what we're all intending to do! Good find, klx650sm2002!!! |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by vroom1776 on 07/20/06 at 08:44:46 That seems like a really good idea... but... we'd have to have extra oil in the crank case to make sure that there is enough oil to the engine when some is in the cooler... but woould there be extra oil in the crank case until it heats up and the thermostat opens? Or would there just be extra oil in the cooler? A little pricey, but the push one ones are only $50. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Kropatchek on 07/20/06 at 10:08:39 lancer wrote:
No offense. I still disagree: 2 ports with the same pressure and diameter>>>> No flow. As suggested earlier: the pressure pick-off plug and the other side of the cooler to the engine drain plug with proper adapter and a non return valve will do the trick. Do we need a referee? Greetz Kropatchek 8) |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/20/06 at 10:49:01 I agree with Lancer about a blocking plug for the "short horizontal passageway". With a 'stat you can run a big cooler (oil cooling like GSX-R's) without overcooling. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 07/20/06 at 12:06:43 Let's all referee, that way we can keep on doing this and having fun without interference. As long as there is somewhere for the oil to go, ie ... up to the filter, the line to & from the cooler will not be static ... the oil will flow. Seems like basic fluid dynamics to me, but I am not an engineer either. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/27/06 at 04:03:06 http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/g152/vroom1776/Oil_3.jpg Question, Does the short passageway ringed in blue go through the the gasket face between the crankcase and the righthand sidecover. Thanks in advance. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 07/27/06 at 05:50:47 If I am understanding your wording correctly, then yes. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Ed_L. on 07/27/06 at 16:14:04 I need to chime in on this again, I pulled the oil cover on my savage and took a long look. For what it is worth I think this will work. Plug the hole marked above the blue circle which runs oil into the cavity that the oil filter sits in. Replace the front plug with a hose fitting, there is a problem here with the size and threads, think it is a M14-1.75 but am not sure. Drill and tap a hole for the oil return line in the side case somewhere above the stock oil filter, not a hard thing to do, it is only aluminium and there is a lot of meat to work with. With this setup the oil runs out the front plug hole thru the aftermarket filter/cooler back into the fitting that was drilled and tapped in the top of the cavity that the stock oil filter sits in and returns to the engine thru the stock filter. Total flow thru the aftermarket cooler/filter and the stock filter acts as a secondary unit. I think this is the easiest way to hook up a total flow oil filter/cooler, just need to find a remote filter and lines that I like before trying it :-/. (Also need to work up the nerve to drill and tap the side cover and plug the oil hole) What do you think, worth a try next oil change? |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by jhb478 on 07/30/06 at 13:52:21 [Haven't found one specifically for the Savage yet, but a machine shop is always an option. I know I would like to go two fewer teeth on mine.[/quote] I have made cogged pulleys for redrives on homebuilt aircraft and have considered doing the same for my Savage, would really like a comfortable cruise in the 70 mph range with a lower rpm and a tooth or two might do it, I'll tool up to make duplicates if there is an interest . John |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Keith_B on 07/31/06 at 13:13:50 jhb478 wrote:
I'd be intressed, that's about what I want but 4 less on the rear is what I had in mind. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by vroom1776 on 07/31/06 at 14:17:19 Ed_L. wrote:
Ed, Don't melt/wreck your bike! esp. if it's your only one! If you are sure you can do it, and it will work properly, be our guinea pig! |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Ed_L. on 07/31/06 at 16:19:00 I'm sure it will work, just a matter of grabbing the family jewels, taking a deep breath and doing the drilling and tapping. The biggest glitch so far is Suzuki used a non standard thread on all the oil plugs where the lines are to hook up. Even took one of the plugs in to Daytona Hoses and Fittings to see if they could match it up. None of thier threaded templates were even close to what Suzuki used. The only way I can see to make it work is to turn one of the plugs into a hose fitting by drilling and brazing a short piece of tubing in it or rethread the holes in the crankcase to a different thread. Already picked up a real small transmission cooler and all the fittings needed from Auto Zone and am working on how to hang it off the bike. Need to grind down a bunch of welds first. One of the custom shops I stopped at had an old greyhair who suggested using a power steering cooler of a late model ford. He said that a buddy of his is using oneon a old school Flat Head and it works great. Kind of surprised he took the time out to talk to me, the guy looked like a couple million miles hard ridden. Need to do this a little at a time so's the old ball n chain doesn't get wind of it. Anytime I talk about changing the bike it is an automatic argument so need to plan well ahead. WTF, what she doesn't know won't hurt her. ;) Also think that Lancer's idea of putting a cooler on those two lines would work. You would get some flow thru it, sort of like putting two resistors in parallel in a electrical circuit, the flow would go thru both. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by lancer on 08/01/06 at 04:58:42 That is a heck of a thing that Suzuki did with these bolt/plugs, , using a one off thread size like that. Doesn't that just torque your rear wheel when they do something like that? |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by vroom1776 on 08/01/06 at 15:32:05 Ed, If you do this, maybe you should take pics... and make a tech. sect. article. V |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Kropatchek on 08/02/06 at 02:44:18 lancer wrote:
Posted a link in the Technical section with all about metric threads. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1154511691;start=0#0 Greetz Kropatchek 8) |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Reelthing on 08/02/06 at 06:33:47 Ed, think it over several more times before you do it. What bothers me a bit about it all is we just do not have much oil pressure to start with - 10 psi best case - so the pump really is just moving oil around with enough pressure to push it through the filter and lift it to the head as it leaks out along the way oiling various parts. Need to be really sure the external cooler and its placement doesn't cause any drop in pressure at all as there is none to spare - while the oil coolers that run up the frame are neat looking it seems unlikely it could be done with out a serious drop in pressure due to the height/lift. As was suggested a power steering cooler mounted roughly inline with the current oil flow shouldn't cause a drop as long as it doesn't introduce any restriction. Another thought is if the purpose is to cool the engine it seems to me a positive air flow through the engine would help in this regard. These being single cylinder engines allows this to happen fairly easy as each time the piston goes down 652cc's worth of air is displaced with no where to go except out through the head breather tube and as the piston goes up it sucks back in generally the same air so this stock design simply moves the same air back and forth through the head breather tube and air box. with a filtered air intake say at the filler cap and an air exhaust at the current head breather tube - directional check valves like pcv's or perhaps reed valves should do the trick. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Ed_L. on 08/02/06 at 13:24:02 I don't think there will be that much drop in the pressure as long as the tubing ID is large enough and the cooler is close to the oil ports. 10 psi can raise oil up to almost 10 feet so there should be enough pressure. Tried matching the trans cooler up to the frame and realized it is too long, Almost half of it will hang directly behind the front tire and get hammered with road debris which is not good. Need to find a smaller cooler. Had to put the project on the back burner for now. My 17 year old boat needs some TLC which is taking up a lot of my free time. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Reelthing on 08/02/06 at 15:11:44 Keeping dang boats together will take all of ones time I've noted over the years |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by smokin_blue on 09/01/06 at 10:27:29 If you want AN fittings check out Earl's Performance products. In particular get into the UK site to search for parts made for bikes. I just finished a GSX-R1100 based monster of a street fighter that I replaced the stock cooler with a 19row Earls'. They have all the metric fittings and 90-s to 180 deg fittings to route anything. Pricy but beautiful. They have the metric straight threads you will need to connect straight up to the factory threads you are all disussing. They list coolers for most all the sporty suzuki's. I will have to check if they have a fittment for the savage. T he key is they have all this figured out in the UK but not in the US where the company is based. I took the UK pn's to the US customer service and they gave me the us equivalent. then I ordered them from a local dealer or I also found an bought some cheaper on line. I am new to the forum but I am planning a major transplant of a savage engine into a different frame to build a 60's style cafe bike. I am planning for the carb, cam and exhaust, looking a porting (questionable the payback), chain conversion is a must, and yes a tach! If I push enough power I will be looking at oil coolers if needed. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by Enfield_fan on 09/21/06 at 09:59:05 jhb478 wrote:
I have seen where several folks have mentioned changing the final drive ratio by putting a smaller belt-drive pulley on the rear wheel...but it occurs to me that there might be an easier way to go about getting a different final drive ratio. Has anyone considered putting a smaller primary-drive sprocket on the input side of the transmission? Suzuki makes a boatload of bike transmissions...I bet there's a factory bolt-on in the neighborhood of 20% smaller. Working out the right length of drive chain might be tricky, but if it worked, it would all fit under the stock primary drive cover. Of course I'm assuming that the primary drive is a chain and not a belt...I'm a newbie in every respect, so I don't know for sure. A 20% smaller input sprocket on the tranny would yield 20% more top end, assuming the bike has enough power to top out the rev range. That would turn an 85 mph bike into a 102 mph bike with more liesurely acceleration. Fuel economy at highway speed should be unchanged, or perhaps a smidge better. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by klx650sm2002 on 09/22/06 at 02:52:40 Remember guys if you double the power you only go 26% faster, you'd still need to up the gearing. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by vroom1776 on 09/22/06 at 07:02:08 I am very strongly considdering going to a chain drive, and getting a couple of different tooth rear sprockets. midrange, HP, and tq... |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by klx650sm2002 on 09/23/06 at 02:47:35 Hey Vroom V good idea. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by vroom1776 on 09/25/06 at 13:57:24 klx650sm2002 wrote:
'bout time! |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by verslagen1 on 02/15/09 at 12:31:09 16370C1F7D530 wrote:
Correct size is M12-1.25 for the pressure port and the bottom one too. Personally, I'd like to put taps in both ports are run a HD oil cooler. There's seems to be enough pressure drop across that transfer port to supply enough flow thru the cooler. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by verslagen1 on 02/15/09 at 12:39:37 4368606F636A6259606768060 wrote:
You mean the primary gear and clutch gear? no chain inside. the '86 is supposed to have a different gear ratio then everything else. I have an '88, and it's the same as a '96. Although I haven't counted them. It's been said that on a early model, the primary gear can be taken off before removing the clutch. If that's what you wanta do, then there you go, get a primary gear and clutch basket off a '86. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/15/09 at 15:11:46 Chain beats belt even if the gear ratio isnt changed because the belt eats some H/P thru friction. So does the chain, but the chain eats less horse power than the belt. |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by BigSingle on 02/15/09 at 16:04:00 584741465B5C6D5D6D55474B00320 wrote:
so true and even the size of the chain makes a difference. Most streetbikes come with a 525(size) or 530 chain. Just swapping to a smaller chain (520 conversion) makes a huge difference... |
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Title: Re: How fast do you think... Post by genejohnson on 07/07/09 at 16:55:36 The Ford Duraspark II module could be made to fire the Savage. Ignition timing can be adjusted somewhat with resistors. Gene |
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