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Message started by dichotomous on 03/13/06 at 05:23:05

Title: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/13/06 at 05:23:05

thats the sound I hear every so often when I accelerate, not all the time, but it only happens then, a very metallic ringing that sounds like its coming from the gearbox area. My bike only has 2300 miles on it and I havent done anything really bad to it, stalled it a few times when I first took it out, but that cant be that bad can it? it'd not be all that great as a "starter" bike like its pegged as if things all break after 3 or 4 stalls.... can anyone think of a reason for the sounds?

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by Banger on 03/13/06 at 05:31:07

Perhaps the infamous noisy speedometer cable. Mine lets out a squeal and rattle now and then under acceleration. Check your speedo cable and lube as necessary, just to see if that's it. Never hurts to give it a look anyway, even if it's not the problem.

Regards,
Banger
=======

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/13/06 at 05:39:08

yeah thats true, never hurts, I'll check it tommorrow as I wont see it tonight.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by lancer on 03/13/06 at 05:49:52

Are you sure the sound originates from the gearbox? Your word discription of the sound makes me think of "pinging", or detonation, which would be expected from a hot running engine (stock Savage engine running very lean) that is under load (accelerating) and running on regular fuel (I think premium is best for an air cooled engine).

**I just looked back at your write-up and noticed that your weather is very cold...that makes for more dense air which makes for a LEANER running engine...which increases the chance of detonation.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/13/06 at 05:54:22

you think?
after only 100 miles of me riding it, and very new and not playing hard with the throttle the pipe IS turning a little blue, definately golden down to almost the second bend.... should I do the carb mods real quick to prevent this from continuing?

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by lancer on 03/13/06 at 06:23:56

Yes, I would rejet and tune the carb...at least the pilot jet...but as long as the float bowl is off you might as well go up on the main jet as well...and shave the spacer or add tiny washers to the jet needle if you are you are up to it.

pilot jet.......low range
jet needle...midrange
main jet.......high range

The Savage is SO LEAN as it comes from the factory that it is almost crazy. To richen the carb so that it is running with a MORE IDEAL fuel/air mixture is just good for the engine, and it will respond better and make more power.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/13/06 at 07:13:25

wanna wait till I get a K&N and a harley muffler

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by lancer on 03/13/06 at 07:21:30

If you will be getting those pretty soon that will be a good way to go and save an extra tuning day. However, if it will be a while before you do the muffler/K&N switch then I would at least put in the larger pilot jet. That is quick and easy and will stop the backfiring...which is not very good for the engine.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/13/06 at 07:27:50

will just messing with the idle mix screw fix part of the problem until I get the muff and filter?

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by USCG Cremeans on 03/13/06 at 07:28:26

im about to buy my new pilot jet and have seen pictures of people with pilot jets with bleed holes. should i get the one with the bleed holes or without?

here is the link.

http://www.carbparts.com/mikuni/mikuni_tuning.htm

i beleive in one of greg650's tech sections i saw his pilot jet with bleed holes. mine doesnt have and bleed holes.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by Reelthing on 03/13/06 at 07:44:15

on the pilot jet with holes and without - I can't tell much difference - I sent one of each to someone - steve530 I think - maybe he has had a chance to compare.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by USCG Cremeans on 03/13/06 at 07:46:05

i just placed an order for a bleed one. we will see how it works out.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by Savage_Rob on 03/13/06 at 10:54:39

I wasn't able to tell much difference either, as I recall.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by lancer on 03/13/06 at 14:07:53

I used both on the stock carb when it was still on my engine and could not tell much of a difference. According to the tech stuff I have read the one with the extra holes does the transition from idle to 1/4 throttle a little smoother than the single hole version. Apparently the difference is so small that you do not really feel it, but it can be charted on a dyno/computer which monitors the fue/air ratio down to the last droplet of fuel.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/13/06 at 16:19:20

so I tried drilling the plug out, but it was domed and I couldnt get a straight drill on it at the angle and width of the drill and the frame there as well, so I had to go at a bit of an angle with a larger bit, which took out a little bit of the housing around it, how do I know when I have reached the idle adjust screw and how large is it?

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by 911radioman on 03/13/06 at 16:25:56

Wow, my plug was flat as a pancake. It's not a very thick plug, maybe 1/4" or so, if that. Gotta drill very slowly and very easily so you don't go all the way though.

I hope you didn't damage your carb when you said it took out part of the housing around it.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/13/06 at 16:32:32

actually, I dont think that I was going on the correct plug now. I had some dislexia and was on the left side of the bike. glad I didnt go through too far. it was the only place I could find with any sort of a plug. were the carbs different in 2002? the bike started up just fine after I got sick of drilling and called it a night though, so hopefully its not too bad

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by 911radioman on 03/13/06 at 16:39:33

Is yours an '02? If so, it is identical to mine. The plug is on the right side of the carb up next to the front tube that connects to the engine. Should have a dab of white paint over it.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/13/06 at 16:48:56

I'm kinda scared to ask what the heck I was drilling then...... can someone look a little above and to the right of the throttle rocker deal? a domed brass plug, or I think its a plug. if I really messed it up I'd rather fix it before I have to have it explode on me on the road, but if its nothing I'd be a lot less worried

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by 911radioman on 03/13/06 at 16:56:03

Go here, for a pic of where the idle mix screw is located on the carburetor. You'll notice the speedo cable in the foreground to give you a landmark on where it is.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1116902127

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by Steve530 on 03/13/06 at 17:06:13

Reelthing wrote:

on the pilot jet with holes and without - I can't tell much difference - I sent one of each to someone - steve530 I think - maybe he has had a chance to compare.

I installed the larger pilot with bleed holes, but did not try the larger non-bleed hole pilot jet. It is an improvement over the stock, but I can't sa that it's because of the bleed jet.

It's running pretty well, so I'll take Reelthings word for it.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by USCG Cremeans on 03/13/06 at 17:18:42

i just looked at my carb and i think i know what you are talking about. It's pretty small correct? My guess would be if you didn't drill deep enough to break through to any passages behind, then it should be ok, i don't believe the carb gets put under extreme loads of pressure. Thats the engines job. If you aren't the first owner of the bike, then the plug may already be removed. Mine was when i bought the bike.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by clueless on 03/13/06 at 17:20:46

my "wing ding metallic sound" went away when I threw threw the belt guard away. Oh well, at least i found it.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by sluggo on 03/13/06 at 17:32:05

sounded to me like a belt chirp

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/13/06 at 19:28:34

belt chirping or belt guard eh? that wouldnt suprise me one bit at all. that belt guard looks like it could make a nice metallic sound. right up untill I dynamat it that is. lol. actually if I figure out that its that I just wont care, if it wont hurt the bike, I dont care, noises that are part of the machine and just how it is, thats fine, like a good lover you gotta live with the snoring if you want such a good ride.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by sluggo on 03/13/06 at 19:39:45

i've said it before, but it bears repeating.

the chirp, like my wifes whinning, i've learned to tune out

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by Reelthing on 03/13/06 at 19:56:40

dichotomous wrote:

well there's a vent tube sort of there - can you post a picture of what you drilled on?

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/14/06 at 05:25:29

I'll take a picture tonight

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/14/06 at 09:59:08

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/BBS/album_showpage.php?pic_id=3489

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/BBS/album_showpage.php?pic_id=3490

well there it is, my first blunder, wonder how many more I will make.... anyways if someone can tell me how bad this is I would appreciate it, though, well, I rode the bike to work today and there was no problem at all with it that I could tell, so I guess I didnt do anything TOO bad I dont think
I did check the other side and sure enough there is a plug with a small hole in the center and white dot on it, looks like maybe someone already drilled but didnt remove the plug

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by Savage_Rob on 03/14/06 at 10:03:50

Umm, yeah. See the spot below marked idle mixture (w/o plug) from the Carb Specs. thread in the Tech Ref forum...

http://suzukisavage.com/images/uploaded/CarbRightweb.jpg

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/14/06 at 10:36:28

yeah I had that and printed it and was looking and seeing it and then forgot it at work but thought I knew where it was, but I had the whole thing mirrored and thought I was on the left side

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by 911radioman on 03/14/06 at 11:52:07

Well, hopefully you haven't damaged anything that would cost you a new carburetor. Those puppies ain't cheep!!!

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by Savage_Rob on 03/14/06 at 12:17:45

dichotomous wrote:

yeah I had that and printed it and was looking and seeing it and then forgot it at work but thought I knew where it was, but I had the whole thing mirrored and thought I was on the left side

I know how that can go. Well hopefully you're right and you didn't really do any damage.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/14/06 at 16:48:08

well, I took the actual idle mix adjust screw plug out after work, yes the real one this time! yup, me=moron
anyways....
took it out, and it can unscrew as much as I feel like, doesnt make much of a difference past 2.5 turns out (I screwed it in all the way first, as a point of begining) and then it idles nice and smooth and there is no backfiring. I also was now able to reduce the idle speed as well, to almost half what it was, is there any bad things with this or is it more of the "as long as it stays idling and running its cool" type of thing? it sounds much nicer now. also did the seat lift, with probably almost an inch of lift, and placed a couple sections of vinyl tubing underneath the old rubber blocks (3/4" OD, 1/2"ID) and it works nicely, very hard to get the rear mounts to line up though, had to push VERY hard to get the holes to line up, but I did. too cold to ride at that point and was dark anyways (my permit has a daylight restriction, and I'm gonna respect it) so I couldnt tell you if the idle mix screw mod helped or not, but thursday or friday I might have a better idea, tommorrow its supposed to snow again so.....
one more question, after searching and reading about the white spacer mod I obviously want to do that and put a 152 main jet in there too, dont know if I will do a different muffler yet but maybe someday. How hard is it to pull off the carb and diasemble it? Now granted nobody on here will likely be confident in my mechanics skills after drilling the wrong friggen side of the carb..... but I figure if I only have wrenches and am not actually drilling or cutting I shouldnt have a big problem.... plus that little lesson taught me to be VERY carefull

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by 911radioman on 03/14/06 at 17:22:13

It won't be necessary to pull the carburetor off to swap main jets. If you pull the tank off, then take the top off the carb (you'll be doing that anyhow for the spacer), then you can rotate the carburetor in place and then remove the bowl to access the main jet.

I'm a little confused though. Are you saying that you have the idle mix screw all the way in and it is idling fine? Or are you saying that you have a good idle at 2.5 turns out? If you are at a good idle all the way in, then I'd be wondering if something was up (based on my limited carb knowledge).

If you decide to do the white spacer mod, be VERY careful with those two little screws down inside the slide. When I did mine, I immediately went to the hardware store and bought identical screws just to have on hand in the event I lost one or stripped the head out of one.

Tom

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/14/06 at 18:08:30

no no it idled horribly slow and hesitant and missed fires and just ran badly all the way in, worse than stock, then 2.5 turns out it seemed to find a happy place

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by 911radioman on 03/14/06 at 19:36:51

dichotomous wrote:

no no it idled horribly slow and hesitant and missed fires and just ran badly all the way in, worse than stock, then 2.5 turns out it seemed to find a happy place

OK, gotcha. I thought I was surely misreading what you typed, but I just wanted to make sure. :D

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by Kropatchek on 03/15/06 at 03:30:57

dichotomous wrote:

no no it idled horribly slow and hesitant and missed fires and just ran badly all the way in, worse than stock, then 2.5 turns out it seemed to find a happy place

Do NOT adjust the idle RPM too slow. Keep it as per Suzuki's recommendation 1000 - 1100 RPM. Remember the oil supply and when the engine is stopped it does not rotate backwards.

Greetz
Kropatchek ;D

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/15/06 at 07:01:28

how can I tell where 1100rpm is?
I have no tach..... and nothing to base it on..... I kinda want a tach anyways, maybe on the next bike....

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/15/06 at 11:55:46

how exactly do you rotate it? the clamp that holds it to the engine? just loosen that and the intake tube clamp and spin? could I spin it enough to not need to take off the tank to do the white spacer mod?
oh, and just checking on the size of washers to fill in the white spacer, #4 right?

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by Savage_Rob on 03/15/06 at 12:02:06

dichotomous wrote:

You'll have to loosen the clamps on both ends, disconnect the fuel line, vacuum line and possibly the throttle cable too. You'll have to disconnect the fuel and vacuum lines to remove the tank too. I just pulled the tank and worked on it in place but it's certainly possible that rotating it could be easier.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by 911radioman on 03/15/06 at 12:17:52

dichotomous wrote:

You'll have to yank the tank to do the white spacer mod. The "lid" of the carburetor will hit the frame if you try to rotate it. That is why you need to take the top off the carb before rotating.

I just filed my white spacer down to 1/2 thickness. Next order I placed from BikeBandit, I ordered a few extra spacers in the event I need to experiment with varying thicknesses. You will have to figure out a way to evenly round off a #4 washer to get it to fit down into the slide as they are too big in diameter. That's why I just filed my spacer down instead.

I didn't have to loosen my throttle cable, there was enough play to rotate it enough to remove the bowl. I rotated mine toward the right side of the bike.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/15/06 at 13:34:10

now why do I have to remove the bowl? isnt removing the spacer just a screw on top of the plate right there under the top cover? this is from the diagram thats on bike bandit and ron ayers and here as well, thats all that seems to come up there is that srew at the top that takes off the plate and then the spacer slides off, right? this is starting to get more complicated if I have to actually pull a lot of stuff apart....

(I just ordered some flatter 4"rise 4"pb 30" width 5.5" centerwidth bars and a harley slip on take off, next is the main jet to be ordered)

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by 911radioman on 03/15/06 at 13:37:04

dichotomous wrote:

If you haven't already rejetted, you'll have to pull the bowl to do the main jet. If you've already done that, then disregard that part.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by USCG Cremeans on 03/15/06 at 15:56:23

dichotomous wrote:

(I just ordered some flatter 4"rise 4"pb 30" width 5.5" centerwidth bars and a harley slip on take off, next is the main jet to be ordered)

where did you get the bars, and what style are they?

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/16/06 at 05:19:10

I got them off ebay, speedmotoparts I belive, no clue what style they are, I just wanted something to put me in a better position and I think those will do it.
and I rejetted yesterday, I took the whole carb off the bike, the main annoyance with that is the intake tube, took me about 30min or more to get it back on.... kinda want to switch to a pod filter for this reason (if I give it a shield it wont get wet in the wet state of VT, soup can anyone?). However, I rejetted, which I thought would be loads harder but took all of 3 minutes, though the white spacer mod was lost as I stripped the heads (I was being very carefull too, used p-oil and everything, those suckers are ON there...) and put it all back together and it ran, 2 cranks and vroom! rode better, idled better, was smoother throughout, though you could definately tell that the midrange hadent been tuned, and there is no muffler or filter on it yet, so its not a powerhouse still, just smoother and less resistive to the same power it seems. oh, I replaced with a 152.5 main jet, didnt seem too rich yet, though I wouldnt reallyknow either way. when I get the slip on I ordered off ebay and throw on a pod filter, which may or may not have an intake tube running out the side or down into the stock airbox location, I imagine this jet will be perfect. I figure if I get annoyed with the midrange I can also just order new screws and drill those out or something.
there never was a big backfire on shut down before, but this time, after riding it around (not just idling) it REALLY backfired, 12ga style.... before it just kinda poofed....
it was snowing out, dont know if the temperature or air density would have created a different condition to allow for the ending backfire, and the chinga ching bing bing is still there, maybe it is the speedo cable, though there was plenty or greese inside

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by USCG Cremeans on 03/16/06 at 07:24:50

I can't wait to get my bike running and running reliably so i can head up north to the mountains near you. I used to ski a lot at sugarbush which im sure if you live in VT you know where it is. I plan on taking a lot of rides up in the mountains, such a beautiful place to be especially if i can enjoy the view without my cage.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/16/06 at 11:24:47

yeah the mid VT green mountain range is quite nice in the summer and fall. I usually do my hiking along that area. hard to compare

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/27/06 at 12:35:36

well, the sound is still there after about 150miles after rejetting and doing the white spacer mod. muffler should come this week. dont know if that might help. one thing I have noticed is that it sounds VERY disquieting after mid RPMs, getting into the higher RPMS its starting to sound like its very much not happy, if I am in 3rd gear and going 50 it sounds like it wants to die, and shakes like a paint shaker (though thats not suprising, its a thumper). but it just gets VERY violent and each thump sounds bad when it gets really revving, then again with no tach I couldnt tell ya where this is happening. maybe this is running too rich? stock everything except a 152.5 main and 1/2 spacer, or relatively half, possibly a tad bit more. I also noticed that it didnt help all too entirely when I did these mods, people on here were saying "different bike" and all I noticed was that it responded quicker and wasnt "trying" to get into power, didnt really notice too much more power. the muffler might help. but really I might also just me an SV650 mid summer if I can get what I paid outta this one, considering the front fender is now smooth and I am likely going to smooth out the tank, I think I might be able to.....

is it possible its also because of the cold too? I havent yet ridden the bike over 50 degrees F....

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by 911radioman on 03/27/06 at 13:40:58

My bike hates cold weather. I rode to work last night (got down to about 28 here), and it makes all sorts of weird noises until it warms up, and it takes these single cylinders forever it seems to warm up. My bike is extremely cold-natured. My GZ250 was as well.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by Savage_Rob on 03/27/06 at 14:34:53

With stock everything, I'd think a 152.5 is likely to be too rich. Unless you've opened up the airflow more you should probably stick to a 147.5 or maybe a 150 at most. That's just a guess on my part. The changes you described will basically get rid of the majority of the backfiring and maybe give a tiny bit more power... in general, the differences you noted. The "different bike" scenarios are when you open the airflow up with a different exhaust (and possibly air filter too) and increase the jet size further.

Title: Re: ching bing bing
Post by dichotomous on 03/28/06 at 12:15:34

oh ok. that makes sense, well the mufflers should be getting here this week sometime. so I will throw them on.