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Message started by theikeman on 01/26/06 at 17:05:09

Title: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by theikeman on 01/26/06 at 17:05:09

Performance tinkering with our Savage Beasts is fun and can be very rewarding. Better performance requires a number of improvements, like ... more air, more fuel, less restrictive exhaust, better flowing intake, hotter/longer spark and other things like better lubrication to help run cooler (again for better performance) . If any of you are interested, I can produce several articles over the next few weeks dealing with some of the more un-usual things we can do to make our Savages better and mo' powerful.
i look forward to your input and sharing as many of you are Savage tweaking geniuses.
Thanks for reading
Ike

Here is number 1 ...

Following is a test performed by a Harley owner comparing Mobil1 Synth to the HD brand. I have used it on my last Savage and am going to use Mobil 1 when I put my current Savage back together and thought this artice may be of interest to many of you.

The Bottom Line: In both of the extreme operating conditions described, the oil temperature reading on my HD dipstick was reduced by 25 degrees to 50 degrees as compared to the benchmark tests which I had conducted earlier using HD's conventional "360" dyno oil. In fact, during the extended idling and parade duty test, the maximum observed temperature was only 180 degrees using Mobil 1, as compared to the 230 degrees which I used to observe with the HD oil. Temperature during extensive high speed highway riding topped out at 225 degrees with the Mobil 1, but used to top out at 250 using the HD oil. Needless to say, this kind difference is indeed significant, especially considering that the actual temperature of the oil in the engine is approximately 10% higher than the dipstick reads, and that conventional dyno oil starts to break down at 250 degrees! At the end of the grueling 1975 mile Myrtle Beach trip, the Mobil 1 in the oil tank still looked light and clean, and smelled fresh - there was non of the usual browning in color which used to happen with the conventional HD oil.

Side Effects of the Mobil 1: I did not experience any noticeable reduction in valvetrain noise, as some listers have reported. Also, my engine did not start leaking oil - at least, not through any fault of the oil's. [NOTE: During the trip, the center rocker box cover on the rear cylinder shifted and caused a massive oil leak. This shift was due to the rocker box being improperly torqued down by the last person who touched it, a "certified" HD mechanic, during the S/E head swap.] However, there was one significant side effect - The engine takes much longer to warm up using Mobil 1. The bike needs to run for about 15 minutes, or about 10 miles, before it reaches normal operating temperature or idling speed - this is about twice as long as usual. This can be annoying if you take frequent short trips around town, but I suppose it's an unavoidable result of Mobil 1's superior cooling properties.

Cost / Benefit: A 6-can case of Mobil 1 15W/50 as shown above (and as tested in AIM by Donny Petersen) sells for approximately $24 on sale, putting the cost per quart at right around the same level as conventional HD oil. However, judging by the recommended service intervals of other vehicles which use synthetic oil as standard equipment, you can use the synthetic oil for twice as long as conventional. I used to change my HD oil every 2,500 miles - now, I can use the Mobil 1 for a full 5,000 miles. Therefore, it is actually cheaper and less time consuming to use synthetic oil.

Disclaimer: For all interested - you should definitely pick up the aforementioned copies of American Iron magazine, or visit Donny Petersen's Heavy Duty Cycles, and read up on the subject of oil before deciding to switch to synthetic. The tests I conducted and temperatures I recorded were for a non-stock bike (S/E Head configuration) ridden under extreme conditions - it is perfectly normal for your bike to get different results. However, the general outcome will most likely be the same. In this case, given the real world proof of my tests, I am totally sold on the benefits of synthetic oil, and I plan to use it exclusively in my Sportster from now on.

The complete article is available at:
http://www.mklsportster.com/xloil.htm

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by babbalou on 01/26/06 at 18:36:52

Interesting article, thanks. I've been wondering when I can switch to synthetic since I've heard anywhere from 300 miles to 7,000 miles. MotorcycleConsumer News magazine recommends 5,000 miles before using synthetic so I'll go with that. I should be getting there by summer & I'll try the Mobil 1.

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by lancer on 01/26/06 at 18:41:44

I started using Amsoil synthetic after my engine rebuild following the massive oil loss incident. I put a couple of hundred miles on it with the oil the shop used when they put it together, then did the oil change with synthetic, and have used it ever since. I like it.

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by Savage_Rob on 01/27/06 at 05:22:55

I haven't looked at the specifics of Mobil 1, so I don't know what types of friction modifiers are used, etc. and it may be fine for the Savage. I would caution that a test in a Harley may not be indicative of performance in a Savage though. I don't know HD engines well, so please correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe the HDs use separate reservoirs for transmission and engine. It appears this testing was done in relation to the engine box alone. It would be good to also see how this performs in the tranny box. In the Savage it's one shared reservoir and some synthetics cause clutch slippage; something that wouldn't be noticed if the synthetic were only used in the engine and not the tranny. I use a full synthetic and like it. I'm just cautious about the testing and how it relates to the Savage.

BTW, while it's not a motorcycle-specific site, I've found a lot of good information at http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/.

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by torque on 01/27/06 at 06:08:04

Savage_Rob wrote:

I I don't know HD engines well, so please correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe the HDs use separate reservoirs for transmission and engine. .

you are correct,the transmission oil is totally differant than the engine oil.

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by Reelthing on 01/27/06 at 06:59:28

Mobil 1 v-twin 20w-50 for me thank you

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by Savage_Rob on 01/27/06 at 08:29:48

Reelthing wrote:

Mobil 1 v-twin 20w-50 for me thank you

Is that Dino, Synth or Blend?

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by theikeman on 01/27/06 at 10:32:07

It is pure Synth.

I used Mobil 1 Synth in my previous Savage and there was NO clutch slippage. I also found no difference in performance between the regular or V-Twin versions.
The first bike I used Mobil 1 synth on was a Yamaha XS650, again no slippage, no problems.
FYI

Ike

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by Savage_Rob on 01/27/06 at 10:37:14

Good to know. I wasn't sure if Mobil might have various types under the Mobil 1 brand or not.

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by Les on 01/27/06 at 13:35:15

I would welcome any performance info and enjoy the same. I recently purchased one of these bike's and wonder about head work and if any flow bench work that has been conducted?? Seems like plenty of valve area for a single but at what flow and where or who does custom porting work for this engine? Les

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by lancer on 01/27/06 at 15:16:30

A few of us have done a little touch work on the exhaust port but I am not aware of anyone who has done the "full monty" on a flow bench. Beyond that, having a performance grind put on the cam and carb/exhaust mod's is pretty much the extent of what most have done.
There has been a photo of a Savage with a turbocharger on it and I believe that was from Europe...but I am not positive.
If you want particulars of specific mod's you can find it in the "tech" section.

Title: oil
Post by davemc on 03/15/06 at 19:01:18

Hi; I am new to the board and to the S40 -- it is my first bike, and I have been riding since January (and I'm in my 40's!); I have spent much time the last several weeks reading through the goldmine of info posted on this board, and I am quite impressed with the friendly spirit of the discussions. Looks like I chose a good bike!

It s my understanding that synthetic oil is not more slippery than dino juice. Synthetic oil has every molecule exactly alike, so the performance is more predictable. Accordingly, it should be perfectly fine to use synthetic oil in a MC wet clutch without clutch slippage. What will cause clutch slippage is the addition of friction modifiers. These need to be avoided in MC oil.

Here are two good sites with info:

http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/syntheticsslipperinessandwetclutches.htm

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

Hope this helps in some way.

DMc

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by klx650sm2002 on 03/16/06 at 02:46:59

Does this mean that My API SG grade 100% synth. 10w/40 is OK ?

Clive W :D

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by Mr 650 on 03/16/06 at 06:48:54

I run the old "red cap", non-"energy conserving"15-50 Mobil 1 in multiple vehicles.
Used to pick up the 5 qt jugs on sale at Wally World.
Now that Exxon/Mobil has reconfigured the Mobil 1 oil line,
I am considering a mix of 1 qt. 10-40 M1 and 1 qt. 20-50 M1 for the Savage, when my stash of 15-50 M1 is gone.
From what I have read I am not sure if Exxon/Mobil 1 will remain my oil of choice.
Also heard from a Comp Cams fellow that zinc is to be reduced/replaced in all oil (Kalifornia/EPA) and that the cam manufactures were concerned about killing flat tappet cams, (like in my 70 375hp SS396!) They were planning to recommend some kind of additive for flat tappet race cams; higher seat pressures there.
Auto Zone & Advance around here offer a good selection of synthetics now. Many choices.
They love the low advertising budget/high quality Schaeffer over at http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ : http://www.schaefferoil.com They run various dyno/synth blends over there attempting to synergize the advantages of different oils.
Remeber avoid some cage "energy conserving" synthetics as they have friction modifiers that may cause a wet clutch (Savage) to slip w/o more spring rate.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=9

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by Savage_Rob on 03/16/06 at 07:11:07

While I haven't gotten into the molecular construction of engine lubricants, my general understanding is that synthetics can go roughly twice as long as dino juice between changes due to reduced viscosity breakdown. Running an air-cooled engine in TX, it seemed like a good idea to use synthetic but still change it every 3K miles. That said, I chose a motorcycle-specific synthetic to avoid any potential clutch slippage issues. So far, it seems to be working well. I am considering trying a blend when I run out of my current stock. Oh, and I decided on 15W50 based solely on the climate/temperature ranges for my area.

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by USCG Cremeans on 03/16/06 at 07:19:38

anyone in the northeast have a synthetic they use for our climate area? im thinking either 10w40 or 15w40.. any input?

thanks

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by Mr 650 on 03/16/06 at 07:25:11

Yeah, There are many good things said about using a diesel oil like synth Rotella 15/40. Some are using Synth/dino blends.

Savage_Rob wrote:

Title: Re: Performance Tinkering and enhancements
Post by gubbs on 04/30/06 at 22:26:18

I have and will always use Shell Advance Ultra 4.

Its what Ducati stipulate *must* be used in all their engines.

These are high revving, desmodronic big twins. The ones I flog .. hard .. are air cooled wet multi plate clutch systems.

I have seen a 50k engine stripped and the insides were spotless with very little precipitable wear on key bearings and components.

The oil cools so efficiently compared to multi that I have never, even under 100mph solid for an hour (motorway) never got the oil temp above 50% of its range.

Modern synthetic oils are outstanding.

They are also, if you want the proper stuff, expensive.

This expense is entirely justified if you want a bike that runs longer, further, cooler and requires less attention.

I will be using it in my Savage when it arrives. :)

Altho I am not sure if its suitable for this kind of engine tbh. They are not exactly 'high peformance' bikes.

I will flog the tits off the Savage tho. So maybe, will have a chat with a few wrenches and see what the verdict is.

Also got to remember this bike is a 20 year old design. Might not like modern fully synth oils as much?

Here's a little of their blubage:

^{Shell Advance Ultra 4
SAE 10W-40
Ultimate performance fully synthetic motorcycle oil for all high demanding 4-stroke engines including racing engines. Offers ultimate lubrication at peak performance levels. Outstanding shear stability and ageing resistance, low evaporation tendency. Top quality synthetic base oils in conjunction with highly effective additives provide superior engine cleanliness and protection against wear and the deposition of carbon on hot engine parts. Excellent lubrication in gearboxes which run in motor oil. Optimum performance in wet clutches: prevents clutch slipping, minimises clutch sticking (after cold start), guarantees optimum soft changes.

Shell Advance Ultra 4 is used and recommended worldwide by Ducati and KTM.

Advance Ultra 4
Part Code: SHADUL41040

Shell Advance Ultra 4 is a unique fully synthetic lubricant exclusively designed to provide the ultimate in engine protection, cleanliness and superior clutch and gearbox operation for high-powered performance motorbikes
It is the best Shell 4-stroke motorcycle oil available
The balanced friction technology used provides quick engine response without clutch slippage for smooth gear shifts and easy starting
The best engine oil for modern, high performance bikes used in racing or high speed, long distance riding
The technology has been proven in race and endorsed by leading motorcycle manufacturers, and has successfully been used in motor sport (WSBK, World Super Sport Championship, World 4T Enduro and Moto Cross Championship)
It exceeds the requirements of international specification (API - SL and JASO MA) and all Japanese and European motorcycle manufacturers.
Avaliable in 1 litre and 4 litre packs.
RRP 4 litres:-
Price: £34.75}