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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Just a little black smoke? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1137308181 Message started by SeeAPierce on 01/14/06 at 22:56:21 |
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Title: Just a little black smoke? Post by SeeAPierce on 01/14/06 at 22:56:21 I've just finished up my Sportster muffler change out on my '06 S40. I did the 10 degree adapter method with a nice chrome heat shield to cover. Looks great, sounds great, runs great. 152.5 Main jet Stock Pilot Jet Stock air filter (2) #4 washers in place of white spacer Only thing is I get the smallest little puff of black smoke out the muffler when I snap the throttle closed. Is that ok? Is it "normal"? That would indicate a rich condition at idle right? I used to have the idle mixture screw at 1.25 turns out from stock, but since I got it back from the dealer service I don't know what it is...I think they changed it and now it won't seems to budge CW or CCW...stuck. Ideas? Should I leave it alone? |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Reelthing on 01/14/06 at 23:00:54 I'd leave it be if it idles reasonable and doesn't die when let off the throttle - a little black puff is far better than lean - may need to have a talk with you dealer about fooling around with your tune - the vast majority know next to nothing about it other than just following the book |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/14/06 at 23:07:39 It's hard to see how they could have fixed it so that the idle mixture doesn't turn. But if it's running good, I would leave it alone. Steve |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by lancer on 01/15/06 at 05:23:52 Since you just put the muffler on you really should adjust the pilot circuit. It is easy to do. After the engine is warmed up (at idle for 4-5 min)... -start with the pilot adjusting screw at 1.5 turns out as a reference point, and count as you turn in and out so you always know where you are during the process. Everything is done and referenced in the "# of turns out". -turn idle up a little so you have a smooth fast idle -turn pilot adjusting screw "in" until engine begins to slow downand note the # of turns out -turn pilot adjusting screw "out" until engine begins to slow (it will speed up initially then go down) and note the # of turns out -then set the pilot adjusting screw in the "Happy middle" of those two positions -after the pilot circuit is happy, turn the idle adjusting screw back down for the idle you desire. *for ex...if the turn in setting was at 1 turn out, and the turn out settig was 3 turns out, then the happy middle is 2 turns out. **Turn slowly as you do this, no more than 1/8 or 1/4 turn at a time...then pause and wait 5 seconds or so in order to give the engine time to adjust, then turn again if necessary. If you have a tach, then you can set the pilot adjusting screw by just tuning for max rpm, then set idle speed. ***If after you have finished this process, the pilot adjusting screw is 2.5 -3 turns out, then you definitely need the next larger pilot jet. For myself, if I go over 2 turns out then I go up to the next size pilot jet. When the pilot is properly adjusted, and assuming there are no exhaust leaks in the system, you will not have any backfiring. It is normal to have some mild crackling and popping on brisk-hard deceleration, but there will not be any backfiring. HAPPY TUNING ;D |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Jim_R on 01/15/06 at 06:03:20 yeah I agree with lancer, u might need to get the 55 pilot jet, but heck why dont u get a k&n drop in filter also? Im sure u will feel the power difference. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by SeeAPierce on 01/15/06 at 10:47:24 lancer wrote:
Thanks Lancer - is the pilot adjusting screw the same as the idle mixture screw? This is the screw that I can't get to move. I scored the screw slightly when I drilled out the plug, but it was usable until the bike went to the dealer for its break in service. Now that screw won't move. I have a new one on order and if I can get the old one out I will follow your instructions on adjustment. Jim_R - yea, I plan on a K&N, but like to make changes one at a time...get things right, ride for a few weeks, then make the next change. I'm just slow about change that way. I have a 55 pilot jet and a 155 main in the drawer if/when I need them...But if I'm rich at idle now - won't a 55 pilot jet make it worse? Thanks everyone! |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by rokrover on 01/15/06 at 13:11:26 There's a transient enrichment valve on the stock carb that's supposed to richen the mixture when the throttle is snapped shut at high rpm. Not enough to puff smoke though in my opinion. Yours is an '06 so perhaps the rings aren't fully run in yet so engine vacuum sucks a little oil into the combustion chamber. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by lancer on 01/15/06 at 14:08:09 Do not bet all the eggs in the basket on one puff of smoke. The best "at home" test is a full tune job as I described above. Next to that, the absolute test is an exhaust analyzer which will show actual fuel/air mixture. Be sure you have a new plug in it and go through the procedure...then check the plug as a follow up. The pilot circuit is the primary fuel deliverer from idle to about 1/4 throttle, and regardless of speed or rpm, if the engine stumbles/backfires/whatever when in that throttle range then the pilot circuit is the likely culprit. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/15/06 at 15:43:08 I've adjusted the idle mixture screw on my 97 and it really doesn't make the difference that lancer described, i.e ide speed doesn't change much. I can only get about 3 turns, maybe 4, on that screw. Is that normal? I still get a pop on shut down and an occasional backfire when I drop the throttle. BTW, I've added a Dyna muffler, cut the spacer, dipped the carb, and removed the snorkel. I'm about to order a K&N "drop in". Any recommendations where to get one? Steve |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by pgolden on 01/16/06 at 14:15:17 Performance international has K&N SU 6595 for $35.75 including shipping. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by BS37066 on 01/16/06 at 16:06:27 My '05 Savage is pretty much the same as yours, Steve. There is the smallest bit of an improvement at one and half turns out and then it settles down. I get that small bump in performance approching it from the left or the right, but it is not a big difference at all sitting in the driveway. On the road, I can get torque in third at 25 mph. At 3/4 turns (where the factory had it set) the engine would lug in hard turns at 30 mph. Oh! And in the driveway, I can take the throttle to the max and drop it without it backfiring. '05 Savage,#152. 5 main jet, half spacer and the rest is stock. Well, I have a windshield and saddlebag supports, but they're Suzuki, too. Steve530 wrote:
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/16/06 at 16:56:12 pgolden wrote:
Thanks. I called them to see if they had it in stock. I got a recording. I'll try them Tuesday. Steve |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/16/06 at 16:58:36 BS37066 wrote:
Backfiring is reduced a lot on my bike with the larger jet and spacer mod, but it's not gone. Guess I'll order a 55 pilot jet and a 155 main jet. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by lancer on 01/17/06 at 06:12:55 [ I've adjusted the idle mixture screw on my 97 and it really doesn't make the difference that lancer described, i.e ide speed doesn't change much. I can only get about 3 turns, maybe 4, on that screw. Is that normal? I still get a pop on shut down and an occasional backfire when I drop the throttle.] When turning the pilot adjusting screw there SHOULD be a noticeable change. As you turn it in, the engine should slow down to the point of stalling as you approach the "full in" position. The same with turning it out, as you approach 3 or more turns out, it should slow again. If this is not happening then there is still a problem with clogged passages, or the adjusting screws are damaged, or you have an air leak between carb and engine, or some of the carb gaskets are damaged/worn so they are not sealing properly...there is something that is interfering with the tuning process. I hate to say it, but you need to take the carb off and go through it again. By the way, the pilot adjusting screw is designed for only 3 turns out max. Go beyond that and a larger pilot jet needs to be installed. For many Mikuni carbs the "IDEAL" setting for the pilot adj scew is 1.5 turns out, with a range of 1-3. When it is necessary to turn it out more than 3 turns for best performance then a larger pilot jet is required. Put in a larger jet and the adjustment will drop back down to the 1.5 +/- turns.If you have to turn it in to less than 1 turn, then a smaller jet is required. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/17/06 at 15:22:39 Thanks for the reply, lancer. The carb to engine intake seems tight. The carb gaskets are in good shape. I did soak the carb body for 40 minutes in Chem-Dip. I did not remove the idle mixture screw. Is it removeable? I also did not remove the pilot jet. I guess I missed this step. After looking at the diagram again, I do not remember seeing the needle jet. Is it possible for the motorcycle to run without the needle jet? Steve |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Reelthing on 01/17/06 at 18:53:05 Steve530 wrote:
Do not see how - the needle jet is a tube the main jet w/brass washer screws into the bottom of it holding it in place , the jet needle comes out of the bottom of the piston valve (diaphram/slide) and goes into the top of this tube - the hole in the top of the tube is the "jet" |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/17/06 at 18:57:46 I don't remember pulling it out and I sure doen't remember putting it back in. I DO remember looking through the bore of the carb and seeing a small diameter tube that was very firmly attached. I don't think that is the neede jet. Guess I'd better go out to the garage and see if I can get access to the carb and check it. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Reelthing on 01/17/06 at 19:03:46 If you were looking down the bore where the round slide/piston valve goes that is the needle jet |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/17/06 at 19:13:45 So is the needle jet flush with the bore? I just removed the intake boot and looked into the bore from the back of the carb. I saw the vacuum diaphram, lifted that up, saw the jet needle slinding into a hole in the bottom of the bore. The hole it slides into is the diameter of the needle and is in the center of a darker piece of metal that is flush with the bore of the carb. Does that sound right? Steve |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Reelthing on 01/17/06 at 19:18:19 Steve530 wrote:
yes sir - that's the needle jet |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Reelthing on 01/17/06 at 19:22:00 and what's interesting is if you put the main jet in (at least the small round) with out the washer that tube will pop up and sort of stick to the jet needle when it goes up - you talk about running rich - D' ammmm |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/17/06 at 19:23:21 Thanks, that's a relief. From the pics in the Clymer manual, I thought the needle jet protruded into the bore. So I guess I didn't remove that, but since I dipped it, I assume the solvent remove the shellac. The engine seems to run prety well, but I'm thinking that I need a larger pilot jet. I don't really get much action out of the mixture adjustment screw. That is turning the mixture screw does not change the idle speed much. Thanks, Steve |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Reelthing on 01/17/06 at 19:27:19 need to be fairly cafeful with that dang mixture screw - little devils can sure jam easy enough - depending on how high you idle is set the mixture adjustment may be subtle - you have a tach ? |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/17/06 at 19:39:55 Yea, I have a light touch with those sort of things. Jus tthe right size screwdriver and no more torque thatn I can apply by rooling it between my fingers. The rpm increase may just be subtle. I do have the idle speed bumped up a bit, maybe that's a problem. I seemed to get the best idle about 1 3/4 turns out. But it runs pretty well all the way in or out. Is this screw adjusting the fuel or air? I assumed it is the fuel flow because that's what those thihgs generally do, but I saw a reference to the idle air screw on the parts fiche at Ron Ayers. No tach. I do plan to get one, but just haven't got around to it yet. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by lancer on 01/17/06 at 20:54:25 You said that you did not remove the pilot jet or the pilot adjusting screw when doing the cleaning before. You really need to do that. Take EVERYTHING apart, soak it again, if you have any tiny tube brushes then use them to clean passages and/or blow ALL passages out with compressed air (WEAR EYE PROTECTION!). I think you will find that after doing all of that the engine will respond the way it is supposed to when you turn the adjusting screws. The whole thing should take about 2 hours. We look forward to a good report afterward. It will not take much more time and you will be able to do it with a blind fold on. Kind of like when in the military and learning to disassemble and assemble a rifle while blindfolded...with a stopwatch of course. By the way, I was the fastest with the rifle...no brag...just fact. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/17/06 at 21:14:15 Thanks, lancer. That screw does come out, then? It seems to reach a point where it get really hard to turn before it's all the way out. I'm not sure that will come out. But I know what you mean about taking the carb apart. I took the tank off 3 times in two days. I think I have that down now. And I replaced the screws with allen cap bolts, so that will be a breeze. Steve |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by lancer on 01/17/06 at 22:57:07 Yes, the adjusting screws will come out. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by SeeAPierce on 01/18/06 at 09:57:45 lancer wrote:
Unless that little brass slot goes flat like mine...grrrr >:( |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/26/06 at 21:58:42 I think I've just about got the backfiring problem solved. To review, I had installed a Dyna muffler and a 152.5 main jet. But I still had some backfiring. Then, I tried removing the idle mixture screw. I stripped the slot in the screw. So I had to give up on that. I got a 55 pilot jet (thanks Reelthing). I removed the stock jet sprayed a lot of carb cleaner up the pilot circuit, and installed the larger pilot jet and a 155 main. The engine still backfired. I'd read here that an exhaust leak could cause backfiring. So i went out Tuesday and bought some exhaust sealant, planning to put it on Saturday. Today I got a K&N filter from Performance International (thanks for the tip pgolden). I installed the filter and decided that try the engine. It caused even more backfiring. That didn't suprise me because of the increased air flow made the mixture even leaner. As it was running I noticed that the exaust pipe was getting really hot. The garage was sort of dark and the exhaust was actaully glowing near the head. I decided to check the head to exhaust flange bolts after it cooled down. They were indeed loose. I pulled out the torque wrench and tightened them to 19 ft-lbs. Looks like I didn't tightened the bolts enough to crush the new gasket when I installed the new muffler. I started it up again and the backfiring is almost gone. The engine runs much smoother. I hope to take the bike out for a ride Saturday and give it a good test. Thanks to all those that helped. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Greg_650 on 01/26/06 at 22:43:27 Good job, and don't feel bad. That gasket will probably crush some more. Vibration and heat/cooling. Just check it again after a few miles..... |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Savage_Rob on 01/27/06 at 05:44:01 Excellent! Glad to hear it. Definitely watch it though. I've found that few exhaust sealants work for long before they burn off. The actual Suzuki gaskets have been the only ones to truly last for me. Don't get me wrong. There may be plenty of others. If you have an aftermarket sealant that still work after a couple hundred miles, please let us know. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by rokrover on 01/27/06 at 07:39:33 Just a tip about those exhaust flange bolts - be sure to liberally coat them with high-temperature molybdenum disulfide (moly) based assembly grease. I've learned the hard way these kind of bolts screwing into hot aluminum cylinder heads have a way of seizing up permanently if left dry. Then you'll easily strip one and have an expensive removal job. Did this once on another vehicle and had to eat the broken and recessed stud out with a spark-erosion electrode. What a pain (especially if you touched the spark) :o |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by SeeAPierce on 01/27/06 at 08:37:35 I went up to a 55 pilot jet (152.5 main) and it was just way to rich. Bike wouldn't stay running at idle and lots of black smoke out the pipe. Went back to the stock pilot jet and am staying with it. Generally it runs like a top in this config, so I'm running with it for now: stock pilot 152.5 main stock sportster muffler stock air filter with door and snorkle removed 1/2 white spacer idle air screw 1.25 turns out from stock (I think) |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/27/06 at 11:40:53 Greg_650 wrote:
Thanks, I'll check again after I get a chance to put a few mies one it. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/27/06 at 11:42:28 Savage_Rob wrote:
Gasket, what gasket? There was no gasket when I removed the stock muffler. I'm heading to the dealer this afternoon. I'll see if they have one. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/27/06 at 11:44:04 rokrover wrote:
Now you tell me. :o Do you think anti-sieze grease will work? |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/27/06 at 11:45:52 SeeAPierce wrote:
Mine seems to be running fine with the 55 pilot. The 155 main may be too much, but I haven't yet checked the spark plug. Also I'm now running a K&N with no snorkle and a Dyna muffler. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Dynobob on 01/27/06 at 11:59:58 Steve530 wrote:
Yeah Steve. I think what he was talking about was anti sieze. Put that on you exhaust studs. |
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Title: Re: Just a little black smoke? Post by Steve530 on 01/27/06 at 15:03:44 Thanks Bob. I have assembly lube, but it's really more for bearings, etc. I actually thought the anti-sieze would burn off, but I'll take it apart and coat the bolts. |
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