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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> What have I done? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1123171986 Message started by gazab44 on 08/04/05 at 09:13:06 |
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Title: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/04/05 at 09:13:06 Hi all i've just fitted a jardine slip-on and also at the same time changed the main jet from 130 to 150. Started the bike up no problem and it sounded great. ;D So i donned my helmet and shades 8) and took it for a spin.....all went well for about 2 miles, noticed improvement mid range...but then it gave out half a dozen or so massive farts and died on me. :'( After about 5 mins i got it started and managed to splutter home. After retrieving my helmet, which i had right footed down the street, tried to start it again but no joy...battery getting flat now >:( Took plug out and it was black and sooted. "Maybe too much of an increase from 130 to 150" i thought , so i changed the plug and put the 130 main jet back in....pressed the button and away she went. SO i decided to don my cool shades and now scratched helmet and try it again...this time i only managed to get to the end of the street before it died...pushed her home and sulked. After getting over my tantrum, with the aid of a couple of bottles, decided to try again... .........STATE OF PLAY AT THE MOMENT....... 130 main jet back in jardine slip-on still fitted it starts first press and idles but as soon as i blip the throttle it stops..and eventually after keep trying battery low Going to leave battery on low charge overnight and try again tomorrow. thought some of you might have some ideas to help. could i have damaged something changing the jet? could the jump from a 130 to 150 be too big without doing something else? it wouldn't be the muffler would it? please help....i now it may also not even be connected to the mods but it ran fine before i made them. thanks gaz |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Savage_Rob on 08/04/05 at 09:50:51 Okay, you opened up the exhaust and added fuel. Maybe try opening up the intake a bit... different air filter or open the airbox at least temporarily for test purposes. Also, make sure you don't have exhaust leaks, especially at the header, as they can cause some wicked backfiring. Disclaimer: I am an amateur in the process of learning so please take any suggestions I have as just that - suggestions. I am most certainly not a pro. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by vroom1776 on 08/04/05 at 09:59:48 Were you at wide open throttle? If not, you may also want to consider upping your pilot jet. However, backfires usually indicate a rich condition... check out these jetting sites, too: http://www.factorypro.com/tech/carbtune,CV,lower_rpm_engines.html http://jimrace.com/faq/CVK40.html http://www.mikuni.com/c-tuning_guide.html Good luck, KS |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/04/05 at 10:57:51 got no exhaust leaks thottle not wide open now when it cuts out...just a little blip from idle. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by mikedasavage on 08/04/05 at 11:43:31 if your plug is charred and wet, you got too much fuel going into your bike that happened to me when i first put the amal on. Like i said in a previous post i hooked up the fuel lines before connecting the throttle cable so while connecting the throttle cable i was pooring gas in. Couldn't figure out what i had done wrong till i changed the plug. started right up after that . no problems since. just haven't had a chance to fine tune yet. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by mornhm on 08/04/05 at 11:51:55 Did I read correctly that switching back to the 130 jets (in between trials with 150 jets) caused everything to work again no problems? Then retrying the 150 jets caused similar problems? Have you looked at the spark plugs again after second time with the 150 jets? Did you check the spark plug before the second trial if so was it OK then? What I'm trying to determine is if it runs fine with the 130 jets and then doesn't run with only change being to 150 jet? In which case it seems like the problem would be in the jets. Are they open? Are the 150's more open than they should be - are they new from the manufacturer or is it possible someone has done some modification (drilled out) to the jets? Have you other 150 jets to try? Just a couple of questions to maybe figure out the problem or at least isolate it. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/04/05 at 12:14:39 mornhm wrote:
sorry, didn't make it clear in "state of play at the moment" ending to my post the 130 jet is back in...it ran fine before mods. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Lee Pierce on 08/04/05 at 12:29:20 Just a shot in the dark, but did you maybe accidentally alter the float level when you installed the main jet? |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Savage_Rob on 08/04/05 at 12:45:28 Hmmm, a stuck float could flood it easily. Definitiely worth taking a peek at. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by lancer on 08/04/05 at 13:16:27 If you have the AMal on the bike, you definitely want to stay with the stock main jet, which is a #300 on the 36mm carb and a #320 on the 38mm carb. Anything larger than that will make the fuel/air mixture very rich. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Ed_L. on 08/04/05 at 16:10:31 Just a thought, did you forget to install the small brass washer that goes between the main jet and carb? Luck with the carb. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/05/05 at 00:15:40 Lancer i have a mikuni carb. Ed_L. wrote:
Ed, what brass washer?..all i have is this and the original looks the same. If i am missing a washer what effect would it have? http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gary.brooks2/g18409.jpg |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Hammy211 on 08/05/05 at 00:38:03 Ed_L. wrote:
Good call. There is definatly a washer. Think I even remember reading in the Clymer manuel of the problems you describe. But you said it works fine with the old jet. Does the old jet have the washer still on it? |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/05/05 at 00:42:22 It used to work fine but it doesn't now, :( and there isn't a washer on the old jet either |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/05/05 at 03:27:04 Just a thought, have You done the white spacer mod ? Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/05/05 at 03:56:16 No I haven't done the white spacer thing. As I said though, it ran fine for a couple of miles with new jet and muffler. but now it will not run off idle with original jet and new muffler :'( |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Paladin on 08/05/05 at 04:39:19 gazab44 wrote:
Sounds to me like you have adjusted the carb for wide open throttle but not off-idle to 2/3rd throttle. Which would explain why you are gasping for fuel with just a little blip off idle. I think you need to cork the exhaust until you swap out the pilot jet and shave the washer. cavate: I have no idea what I'm talking about, I'm just mindless parroting what I've may have mistakenly remembered reading. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Reelthing on 08/05/05 at 05:07:05 I did not read if you located the brass washer - with out this the needle jet tube will not stay in place - and it will do as you describe - did this once. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Savage_Rob on 08/05/05 at 05:11:30 For the brass washer, see item #17. http://www.ronayers.com/fiche/300_0271/carburetor/carburetor.cfm?man=su&groupid=7190&parent=7080 |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/05/05 at 05:32:33 Reelthing wrote:
have not got washer for either... |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/05/05 at 05:41:37 Savage_Rob wrote:
I see the washer you mean......they do not ship outside usa....have to have a look round. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Reelthing on 08/05/05 at 05:43:07 Perhaps it fell out when you wasn't looking - no idea but it flat will not run correct with out it - unless your carb is designed different but so far as I know you have the same bs40 just jet'd down a bit |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Reelthing on 08/05/05 at 05:49:07 gazab44 wrote:
Nothing special about it - other than being a bit thick - I'm on the road or I'd pull the bowl and mic it for you |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Savage_Rob on 08/05/05 at 05:54:18 gazab44 wrote:
Hopefully you'll find the original. If not, you should be able to get it through a dealer. BikeBandit.com (http://www.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/oem_schematic_view~mp_id~~schem_dept_id~707243~section_dept_id~1~section_dept_name~OEM+%28Stock%29+Parts~dept_type_id~2~model_dept_year~1998~model_dept_mfr~Suzuki~model_dept_id~703439~model_dept_name~LS650PW+SAVAGE.asp) also has the fiche listings. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/05/05 at 07:52:46 Looked, can't find it :'( i'll have to try and get one |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Savage_Rob on 08/05/05 at 08:27:16 If for some reason you are not able to get one sent to England, I'll get one to you. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/05/05 at 09:06:56 thankyou savage-rob..much appreciated..i'll try and then let you know.. I think I need to get it before continuing... |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/05/05 at 11:10:26 when i get a main jet washer would it be advisable to take top off carb to check that i haven't disturbed the needle jet tube..and also should i change the pilot jet or wait and see..and should i do the white spacer :) |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Savage_Rob on 08/05/05 at 12:05:17 I would suggest doing the white spacer mod. To do that, you'll need to open the top. However, for just adding the washer, I think you just remove your main jet, slip the washer/spacer on it and reinstall it. Also, maybe I missed it... What year model is your bike? |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/05/05 at 12:18:26 its a 96 :) |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Savage_Rob on 08/05/05 at 14:36:00 Okay, just checkin' since the '86 and '87 are different. I wanted to be sure yours was basically like mine - albeit jetted leaner to begin with. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by slavy on 08/05/05 at 17:02:34 It doesn't make sense- there is something more than this. With the set-up You have, the bike is supposed to be running very lean. In the same moment You are telling us the spark plug is black and covered in carbon,. This is an indication of very rich running. The main jet controls 3/4-full trottle. The way you are telling- Your problem is around 1/8- 1/4 trottle- like there is a problem with the jet needle or with the emulsion tube. Going to 150 main jet is way too much. If You are keeping the stock air filter may be You should go 135-137.5. But this will not cause the bike to die. Make sure the float is not getting stuck. Make sure You connected the hoses correct. Take the carb. apart and make sure all the parts are in the right place. It sounds like You pulled out the pilot jet and did not put it back. I wish I can be more helpful, but everything is just an educated guess. Good luck! |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/06/05 at 00:28:16 I am going to put everything back as was, once I get a main jet washer, and check that I haven't disturbed the needle tube when putting jet in without the washer, and then start again also doing the white spacer jobby. Never touched the pilot jet. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Greg_650 on 08/06/05 at 06:52:27 mikedasavage wrote:
This is a mis-nomer (sp). Unless your carb has the feature of an accelerator pump, you will not flood your engine by moving the throttle linkage....ever. Gas only enters the engine by venturi action when air is drawn through the carb.... ....just think how flooded all those bikes in the showroom would be after a day filled with kids and newbies cranking on the throttles and going "vvrrooomm". Ever seen a sign on a bike that says, "Do not turn throttle"? My guess is that you got gas in there or blackened the plug some other way, and simply fixed the condition with the installation of the new carb. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/06/05 at 08:41:54 took carb off, only thing i found was the needle jet sticking proud inside the carb, should it be flush? would this cause my probs? when main jet has got the washer on will it pull it into the correct position? also the jet needle has notches..would moving the clip down be similar to halving the white spacer? |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Greg_650 on 08/06/05 at 09:12:42 gazab44 wrote:
How does a needle jet "stick proud" inside the carb? What does that mean? Your needle has a clip? I really don't have to explain that one to you. You know :) Main jet has a washer, yes.... Remember the spec sheet in the Technical Corner? Why would you think that you could put a #150 main into a carb that has completely different guts then the standard US carb? A #150 is 2 sizes above stock for our carbs...therefore a #135 might have been more appropriate for you.... |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/06/05 at 09:24:15 Greg_650 wrote:
the needle jet (#10 on the carb breakdown drawing) was above the profile of the "tunnel" as if it had been pushed up from the bottom, possibly because i fitted jet with no washer. Forgot that the jet sizes you talk about were for usa and not uk..ooops :-[ |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by bentwheel on 08/06/05 at 09:29:11 Greg_650 wrote:
You gotta love British dialect. To stand proud means to go beyond the surface. In other words, the opposite of flush. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by bentwheel on 08/06/05 at 09:45:24 gazab44 wrote:
IIRC, it's more like 1/3rd. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Savage_Rob on 08/06/05 at 10:53:58 Notches on the needle... that sounds like a DJ needle - certainly not the same stock needle we get in the U.S. anyway. You can move the clip one notch to accomplish the same as the white spacer mod. At least you can with the DJ needle and the notch spacing it has. Just hold the spacer up to the needle to see what that would do. That's how I did it on mine since I'd already wasted the cash on the DJ kit. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/06/05 at 11:23:46 how do you know if floats are set correct, is there a measurement? |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by bentwheel on 08/06/05 at 11:31:51 Float height is 28mm plus or minus 1mm. This is for 1986 to 1994, but I am pretty darned sure all carbs are the same. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by bentwheel on 08/06/05 at 11:37:47 Savage_Rob wrote:
Actually all the early Savages came with an adjustable jet needle. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/06/05 at 11:38:01 measure it like this ? http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gary.brooks2/float.jpg |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Greg_650 on 08/06/05 at 11:58:49 Well, actually that drawing is a little strange. Normally the level is measured from a point inline with the edge of bowl gasket surface, not like shown. A good rule of thumb is that the center line of the floats are parallel with the float bowl flange.....whatever the distance. If you check them with the carb installed, just push up Gently to close the float needle and check. Hint - usually the floats are stained/tarnished at about the float line too. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by bentwheel on 08/06/05 at 12:00:13 OK Gazab, before you start you need a caliper or some other gauge/ruler accurate to 1mm. Remove the float bowel. Next remove the gasket from the float bowel if it is still attached to the carb body. This surface is where you take a measuring point from. Turn the carb upside down. You will notice gravity forces the float downward slightly. Lightly move the float upwards to its highest travel then move it back down to the exact point where the float carrier touches the inlet needle (needle valve). I believe it is spring loaded.This is where you take your measurment. It is the distance from the gasket surface to the top of the float. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Greg_650 on 08/06/05 at 12:07:16 bentwheel wrote:
The floats hang by gravity and the needle is attached to the floats with a small wire clip. Not a spring. The clip just assures that the floats will pull the needle out of the valve seat (open) when more gas is needed in the bowl. When the float rises, it closes the needle with a small tab in the float arm. That small tab is what you bend to set the actual float height. http://suzukisavage.com/images/uploaded/MainJet01web.jpg |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by CHRIS on 08/06/05 at 17:07:58 Something from Suzuki: quick and semi-acurrate way to see if float level is close, hook a clear hose to the bowl drain, point the end up, open the drain, fuel should come up to level of float setting. Basically to where the bowl meets the bottom of the carb. This is not the most acurrate, but if you're off by a bit you'll see it there. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/07/05 at 09:47:17 *******UPDATE******* Put everything back to stock, except white spacer moved down a notch on needle. remember uk spec! 130 main jet (still waiting for brass washer) ? pilot jet (forgot to look >:( ) stock silencer. Started up, runs and idles fine :). A bit of black smoke from exhaust which it as always done. So where to now? Fit Jardine slip-on? Change main jet to ? Change pilot jet to? |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by bentwheel on 08/07/05 at 12:51:45 When you are tuning for performance, always do one step at a time. This way if there is a miscue you will know the problem right away. After a modification, ride the bike, look, listen and feel, TAKE NOTES. It sounds like your first change is dropping the clip on the needle. This should enrichen the low to mid range. Go for a long ride and check to see if you have made a step forward. Next step, put on the slip on. Test for leaks, take your time here and get it sealed so you know this is not a problem later on. You can expect your jetting will become lean. Ride it and see if this is so. Make notes and do a plug chop. If you are lean as you might expect go one size up on the main jet and do another test, take notes. Keep rejetting as required. Later on you can fine tune your jetting by moving the clip up or down on your needle. Also when experimenting with the pilot jet and air screw do it in single steps and of course, take notes and the same thing if modifying your intake/filter. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/09/05 at 01:07:01 managed to order the main jet washer and 2 main jets, 132.5 and 135..just waiting now..will let you all know of progress OR ask for help again.. :) dealers in this country do not seem too interested if you're not spending hundreds of pounds >:( |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/16/05 at 05:00:31 Main jet washer arrived...no main jets though (trying another dealer now) Fitted the washer and took bike for a run....no problems..130 main, stock muffler. Fitted jardine, still 130 main and took for a nother run.. definately lacking mid range..also smoke coming from air filter, what does that mean? Anyway back to stock until I get new jets. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Reelthing on 08/16/05 at 05:15:14 when that needle jet tube lifts up it can suck quite a lot of gas into the engine. your oil seem ok or does it smell like gas or is there to much? The head breather tube goes into the air box, I'd expect this to be the source of the smoke - you can pull it off the air box and start it to see if it's puffing smoke - but don't ride like that or you'll be sucking dirt into the engine. was the engine just getting real hot from being real lean ? |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/16/05 at 05:28:20 oil doesn't smell of gas, but there is a little too much in..nearly at top of site glass. It could of been o/heating I supose as I let it idle a long time. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Reelthing on 08/16/05 at 06:00:43 Is the little too much oil a new thing or when you changed it last you got a little to much in there? |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/16/05 at 06:07:15 Not too sure about that. changed the oil about 4 weeks ago at work on nights (semi-darkness) and haven't cheked the level since. I shall drain some off and keep my eye on it. Are you thinking it my be fuel in there? |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Savage_Rob on 08/16/05 at 06:08:14 Yeah, I think the important question here is: Do you think you overfilled it or is it possible that fuel has backed into the engine and mixed with oil. If the latter is even possible in your mind, it'd be worth the few clams and 20 minutes to drain it and change the oil and filter - just to be sure. At least that's how I'd see it if it were my bike. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Reelthing on 08/16/05 at 06:11:36 gazab44 wrote:
Maybe - just another phobia of mine - clean oil is just so easy to do - you could even skip the fliter this go round. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Savage_Rob on 08/16/05 at 06:19:00 Reelthing wrote:
True. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/17/05 at 03:20:54 JET NEEDLE PLATE= dimple up? or dimple down? Dimple down exposes both holes fully Dimple up only half exposes holes. I think dimple down so that both holes are fully exposed |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Reelthing on 08/17/05 at 04:45:58 down she goes |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Savage_Rob on 08/17/05 at 06:30:31 gazab44 wrote:
You kinda answered yourself there. It only lines up fully one way. Git 'er done! |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by gazab44 on 08/20/05 at 04:55:55 Reelthing wrote:
HA HA....you don't live over here.... wanting to put either 10/50 or 20/50 in but none of my local bike dealers have any.....got to order it >:( have got a local motor discount shop (for cars) is there a difference in car and bike oil? |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Reelthing on 08/20/05 at 05:29:31 Some of it is different for sure - I'd stay away from any of the friction reduction oils or car syn oils. |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Reelthing on 08/20/05 at 05:38:35 and of course there's endless discussion.... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1111416396 |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by roughrider on 08/20/05 at 07:37:26 Yea DUDE keep on changing parts. There here to help. :D lol |
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Title: Re: What have I done? Post by Reelthing on 08/20/05 at 14:18:04 rough, you having cramps or something ? need a midol? |
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