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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
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Message started by adamoverdrive on 07/31/05 at 22:45:06

Title: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by adamoverdrive on 07/31/05 at 22:45:06

http://www.rittermusic.com/savage/adamoverdrivesavage1.jpg
I'm new to the message board and a new rider as well. The Savage is my first bike. It's a 2001 and I bought it direct from a suzuki dealership with only 20 miles on it. I originally didn't think I'd make any changes since I was a first time rider and it was basically a brand new bike, but having 3 cycle enthusiasts as best friends seemed to take me in that direction faster than expected. When riding with some of the guys, they kept saying how quiet the bike was. So they encouraged me to drill some small holes in the baffle to give it some more volume. Soon after doing so, I noticed I was getting some pretty loud backfires once in a while. They would only happen when I roll of the throttle. I briefly tried getting rid of it by adjusting the mixture screw without success. So, I ended up purchasing a Dynojet Kit and K&N filter thinking that it may help to correct the backfires, and if it didn't, then at least I'd have a little more kick. The backfires were not corrected. In fact I think they got worse. So, I figured I'd change the exhaust all together while I was at it. If I was going to have to fine tune it to get rid of the pops, I might as well have a more desirable exhaust as well. So, I bought a screaming eagle off of lancer. Not as simple an installation as the sportser instructions implies (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1114360126). But I managed to make it work. The stock muffler has a slight bend where it connects to the header pipe, so I had a friend weld a piece in to give it the necessary angle to send it straight back like the stock one. Works and sounds great. I also made a good seal by purchasing the stock gasket and inserting it into the new pipe.
http://www.rittermusic.com/savage/adamoverdrivesavage2.jpg
http://www.rittermusic.com/savage/adamoverdrivesavage3.jpg
Anyway, back to the problem. So now with the Dynojet kit, K&N filter, and Screamin Eagle I still can't get it to stop popping. I get lousy gas mileage, a little black smoke out the pipe, blackened spark plugs, and frequent backfires. So, it has to be too rich. Which I don't understand because I installed everything as directed. I tried dropping the needle and going to a smaller main jet and it seems to have made the backfires and popping worse still. Now it backfires or pops almost every time I roll of the throttle to shift gears. I'm at a complete loss for how to fix this? Maybe someone has the same set up and could tell me their settings? Help me please!!!!

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by Dynobob on 08/01/05 at 08:39:25

Did you remove the white spacer ? The Dynojet kit is designed to be used with a whole white spacer. The popping is due to being lean on the very bottom end. Turn the slow mixture screws counterclockwise and richen the slow mix. You can also install a larger pilot jet if you're running out of turns on the screw.

An exhaust leak will also cause popping. Did you replace the crush gasket ?

The overall richness is probably the needle. Install a white spacer. If that doesn't lean it out, raise the needle a notch (lower the clip) or two.

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by adamoverdrive on 08/01/05 at 09:17:27

I kept the white spacer in just like the dynojet kit instructions said. I'm pretty sure I'm not getting leaks because I used a brand new gasket to seal the muffler to the header pipe. So what you'r suggesting is to lower the needle to help with the overall richness and then back out the mix screw to do away with the pops? What size pilot jet should I use if I need to switch it?

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by Jim_R on 08/02/05 at 04:27:14

I used a 55 pilot but since I had a HD sportster muffler I had to use some Alum Tape I got from a Heat/Air warehouse so I could make up the difference between the header and the muffler. Mine would only clamp down so much before bottoming out and not truely be seated correctly. I am not saying this is your problem but double check your exhaust for leaks. How does the bike actually preform with the carb settings? Does it feel powerful? lean? sputtering with too much fuel?
Try running it with the choke on and see if that keeps it leaner. Just to see where u are at with the needle.

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by Savage_Rob on 08/02/05 at 06:00:47

I'm using a 55 and it's working for me but that really doesn't need to be changed unless you can't get your idle mixture rich enough using the idle mixture screw. So far as the white spacer and the DJ kit, you can keep it or toss it and simply adjust the clip on the needle to compensate. Personally, I kept it just so I wouldn't lose it.

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by Dynobob on 08/02/05 at 11:56:03

adamoverdrive wrote:

So what you'r suggesting is to lower the needle to help with the overall richness and then back out the mix screw to do away with the pops?

Exactly. Use the pilot jet the others are suggesting if you have to turn your slow mixture screw out too much. I don't think you will. I think my Savage with carb mods is at 1 1/2 - 2 turns out.

The exhaust gasket I was referring to is the crush gasket between the header pipe and the cylinder. If you loosened the bolts to install your muffler, you should replace the crush gasket.

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/03/05 at 06:41:24

If the slow mix screw is more than 3 turns out you must go up on the pilot jet, less than 1 turn out go to smaller pilot jet.

Clive W :D

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by lancer on 08/03/05 at 09:59:02

You were confused about the plug looking like you had a "too rich" mixture, and yet it was still backfiring. Your mid-full throttle range could be rich and still have an idle-low rpm range that is still lean. You put on the new muffler and the K&N, which leaned out more an already lean mixture. You installed the jet kit which richened up the mid-high rpm range but left the idle-low rpm range untouched and still lean. If you turned the pilot screw out a turn or 2 that would help a little but probably not enough to compensate for the extra air flow created with the muffler/filter change. You need a larger pilot jet, and then tune the pilot screw with that installed. That should pretty much take care of the decelerating backfiring...assuming there are no air leaks in the carb/header pipe/muffler areas.
Like the others have mentioned, when tuning the pilot circuit if you turn out about 3 turns then you need the next larger pilot jet. If you are less than 1 turn out then the next smaller jet would likely be best. Also, when tuning the pilot circuit, it helps to turn up the idle speed first to about 1800-2000 rpm so you can hear the engine response to the pilot tuning better...you want the fastest idle speed possible while turning the pilot adjusting screw. After you get the highest idle speed then go back to the idle speed screw and take it back down to the proper idle speed...1000-1200 rpm.

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by roughrider on 08/04/05 at 19:02:32

Everybody keeps telling me I have a gasket in the end of my header pipe. Through your discussions I have learned this can cause leaks and backfiring. I have a new 05 boulevard. It has backfired every since I got it. It doesn't appear to have a exhaust leak at the header pipe. I have had the exhaust off and have confirmed there is no gasket at that location? Should there be one here? Is this my problem as well? By the way YOUR BIKE LOOKS REAL SWEET!

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by Savage_Rob on 08/04/05 at 19:56:11

roughrider wrote:

It's probably in there. It's semi-metallic and can be difficult to see. You may have to use your finger to pry it loose from inside the cylinder head.

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by shawn_b on 08/04/05 at 20:44:44

there is not a gasket at the end of the head pipe i know becuse i went to the dlea to buy one for the new muffler i was going to put on but there is not one there
the guy showed me on the part fisher no gasket

shawn

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by Savage_Rob on 08/04/05 at 21:14:49

See part 2.

http://www.ronayers.com/fiche/300_0271/muffler/muffler.cfm

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by Reelthing on 08/05/05 at 06:31:34

shawn_b wrote:

Shawn,
there is a gasket at each end of the pipe, moreover there two different types at the muffler - one a copper clad and the other feels like it's made out of mica or some such and is slightly larger than the copper clad - they seem to inter change and both tend to stay inside the muffler once installed.

You are putting too much faith in your dealer - they do not know much about these bikes and are the source of most of the oil leaks because they do not seal the head plug after they remove it - let alone replace it as they should - to me it is a one time use gasket like any other gasket - but no dealer stocks it that i have found - so no dealer replaces it normally.

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by Savage_Rob on 08/05/05 at 06:55:06

Yes. The one I was speaking of is part 2 and fits against the end of the header pipe inside the lip opening of the cylinder head. This part is partially metallic and crushes to form a seal. Therefore, anytime the header pipe is loosened, care must be taken to get this back into the exact same position to minimize leakage if it is to be reused. It's easier and more reliable to simply replace it. They are only a few dollars, so I try to keep a spare. The other exhaust part commonly referred to as a gasket is called a muffler connector (part #5) on this fiche and is the one that seems to disintegrate and stay inside the muffler. This one should also be replaced if the muffler is removed/replaced. If your dealer looked at the fiche and still thinks there are no gaskets, he is an idiot.

Rob

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by Reelthing on 08/05/05 at 07:16:47

I'd have to looked back through the part numbers - But i think it's that #5 that is different through the years -

anyway - It may not be these dealers fault - I just do not think they work on savages very much and maybe experts on complex machines they work on all the time - but just do seem to know jack about these.

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by Savage_Rob on 08/05/05 at 07:28:11

Reelthing wrote:

The microfiche on RonAyers.com and BikeBandit.com are great for looking up model-specific stuff.

So far as the dealers go, I think they simply don't care about Savages. But I still say that if a dealer looked at the fiche and stated there are no gaskets, he's an idiot.

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by vroom1776 on 08/05/05 at 12:05:49

Jim_R wrote:

Try running it with the choke on and see if that keeps it leaner. Just to see where u are at with the needle.

Not to be a jerk, just trying to help...

The choke is not actually a choke in the conventional sense in that it does not "choke" the engine by restricting airflow. Opening the choke, i.e. pulling the knob out to the left of the bike, actually adds more fuel. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by bentwheel on 08/06/05 at 08:13:49

Technically you are correct Vroom, it is an enriching valve. Realistically it is acceptable to still refer to it as a choke.

Title: Re: Need help getting fuel/air mixture correct
Post by Savage_Rob on 08/06/05 at 10:44:26

I guess you could think of it as someone spraying stuff down your windpipe as you try to breathe.... choke.