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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1121479783 Message started by savage_joe on 07/15/05 at 19:09:43 |
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Title: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by savage_joe on 07/15/05 at 19:09:43 I am nearing my wits ends with this thing. I have pulled the white spacer and I have tried 2, 3, & 4 3mm washers for spacers with no luck at all, by the way #4 washers do not fit down the hole in the slide. I have tried adjusting the idle speed and mixture to no avail. The plug is black. The idle speed is almost at spring bind, and still will not idle. The jetting is stock (87 is a 155 main). I pulled the air filter out and it seemed to get worse. The bike is all stock except it has a pipe (not sure what kind, it came with the bike, it is load and shoots flames right out the end). Does anyone have a "base" setup for the stock carb and airbox with a free flowing pipe. Thank you very much for your time and assistance. Joe |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by savage_joe on 07/15/05 at 19:12:01 Almost forgot to mention, I tested the compression and got just above 155psi. |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by savage_joe on 07/16/05 at 04:18:27 Anyone have any ideas? Thanks....Joe |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by Greg_650 on 07/16/05 at 07:36:50 savage_joe wrote:
Is the problem, that the bike won't idle? Okay, the first thing that you always do, is only change one thing at a time. That way you can go back to where you were. I mean, if it won't idle then why change the spacer? They aren't related. Black plug? Flames? Put everything back the way it was and start over on the carb....are all the hoses connected correctly? No leaks around the carb to intake mount? |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by lancer on 07/16/05 at 07:57:48 Joe, I sent the reply to message you sent me. |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by savage_joe on 07/16/05 at 08:42:31 Lancer, I got your PM and I am thinking about buying a carb. I do want to get it running with the stock carb so I have something to compare it to. The idle is my main issue right now. The idle mixture screw does not seem to effect the idle. The pipe has black smoke coming out. I think everything is sealed up good, no air leaks. Just keeps stalling. How long can you run these air cooled bikes without running into heat related issues. It started up good when cold with no choke at all and it idled ok for the first few minutes, then it wants to stall. Any ideas? Thanks...Joe |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by Greg_650 on 07/16/05 at 08:55:10 savage_joe wrote:
Look. It sounds like you have a really over rich situation here. Sounds like it is actually flooding out.... Go to the Tech Corner (don't post there) and check out this topic... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1098869040 Check out this picture too... http://suzukisavage.com/images/uploaded/CarbLeftweb.jpg Just for grins, turn the petc0ck to the PRI position and pull off the vent hose shown in the photo. Any gas come out? There shouldn't be. Sounds like you need to check the floats or the float needle. |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by savage_joe on 07/16/05 at 11:05:07 Ok, small update. I tried pulling out the choke a bit when the bike is idling rough and it seemed to smooth it out some and bring up the rpms. I also do not see any difference when adjusting the idle mixture. Could this be a blocked or partially clogged pilot jet? Thanks again for the help. Joe |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by Greg_650 on 07/16/05 at 11:11:52 Look, go back to the beginning. I'm trying to figure out what you are doing and what is wrong. Is the engine cold or hot? Is everything back the way it was before this problem started? Original spacer installed? Petc0ck in the ON position? Also, if the bike is running rich from a float problem you can adjust the mixture all day with no change. I can try to help, but we have to follow a dialog to make it work. |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by savage_joe on 07/16/05 at 11:35:38 Greg_650 wrote:
I sent you a PM, do you prefer a PM or keep adding to this thread? Thanks...Joe |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by Greg_650 on 07/16/05 at 12:00:38 savage_joe wrote:
I answered you... We can do it here. That is fine. Others can read it, and it may be helpful for them, or I may make a mistake or overlook something and others will be sure to point that out too :P |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by savage_joe on 07/16/05 at 13:16:37 I am getting gas, and it is clean. The floats also seem to be operating ok. I do want to keep the airbox in there as it is also the mounting point for the side panels. Just to note I have a 47.5 pilot jet, and I have noticed most people on here and the newer bikes have a 55 pilot jet. Could this be my issue, too lean on the pilot circuit? With a too small pilot jet would it be next to impossible to see any difference when trying to adjust the idle mixture screw? This mixture screw is pretty goofed up to from being stripped out. I do not think it is flooding out due to the floats or anything. I am tempted to go pick up a 55 pilot jet and try that out to richen up the idle circuit. Let me know what you think. Thanks...Joe |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by Greg_650 on 07/16/05 at 16:17:02 savage_joe wrote:
Looking at it technically, we have to look at what is going on. When you start randomly changing things you can cause even more trouble for yourself. Which is why I suggested that you put everything back the way it was. We also have to assume that the current setup was working just fine at one time....I asked if the bike has always (as far as you know) been giving trouble. Did you buy it this way? (Sorry, if I missed that info). Jets do not go bad, so scratch jets off your current list. Save that for when it runs. Now, just how do you know that the floats are okay? Did you check the vent tube with the petc0ck in PRI. Have you removed the bowl and operated the float with the gas turned on? And as for the mixture screw, this is a new piece of info....Did you strip it out? Was it that way when you got it? Please answer each question as I ask, so that I can keep track.... we need to find out if it is time to remove the carb or move on to another area. I understand how frustrating this can be, but the only logical way to fix it is one step at a time. BTW - my pilot is 52.5 and your carb originally had completely different jets (and more of them)...check the specs in the topic "Carb Specs" |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by savage_joe on 07/16/05 at 18:52:40 Yes, I did buy it this way, and the previous owner put the mac pipe on it, and goofed around with the carb, and even tried another carb from an 86, then put it back on and sold it to me as his wife just decided to buy a newer and larger bike. So, I really do not have a "starting point". I do understand your thinking as you really have to change only one thing at a time to be certain what changes are causing what results. Yes, I checked the float vent tubes with petcock on PRI. I also pulled the carb out and verifed the float needle and seat are sealing good and working properly with the bowl off and the gas hooked up. Not sure about the level, but it is not flooding out the carb and I do not believe the float is low as the bike idles good with a bit of choke on, and the choke is drawing fuel from the float bowl also. Also when I remove the carb from the bike, a decent amount of fuel is in it. Idle mixture screw was pretty well stripped when I got the bike :-( Looked in and saw two small triangles instead of a flat slot, hence why I asked what kind of bit it took, as I was hoping it was a special bit instead of being a badly stripped flat head. I tried to remove it with no luck, as it gets to a point where it just spins and spins and does not come out of the bore enough to grab it with anything. I can manage to adjust it though, just takes a little patience and a nicely sharpened flat head. I picked up a 55 pilot jet (the only one they had in stock) and may give that a shot tonight. I'll let you know if I find the time to try it out. I do have the 1/3rd spacer in there right now also, and I do not see the decel backfires anymore (which it did bad with the stock white spacer in the carb). Also to note, the previous owner told me he took the white spacer out, yet it was in there when I opened it up. They also told me they had tried another carb (from an 86) and had raw fuel leakage at idle once and promtly switched the carb back to the 87 stock one, they probably tried the 86 carb without any white spacer explaining the fuel leakage they experienced and I have read about on here. So, I hope I answered all the questions you asked, and probably a few that you didn't. Thank you very much for your assistance, it is greatly appreciated. Joe |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idleNow, I' Post by Greg_650 on 07/16/05 at 19:16:19 Good job, Joe...and it sounds like the previous owner did an even better job. :P I've gotten someone else's basket case before too, so don't feel bad. Now, I'm beginning to wonder about that mixture screw. I wonder if the valve/seat is broken. If the screw tip is broken in the seat, your problem may be there. Have you taken the carb completely apart and cleaned it out? How about the diaphragm on the top? Everything good. No cracks? Have you looked at the specs for your carb? You haven't mentioned doing that. That pilot jet is not the correct one. Why put it in if its wrong? Especially since your carb is supposed to have many differences with later years. I would check every jet with the specs in the other section, but since the mixture screw is such a mess, you may need another carb.... ....Pull that carb out. Clean it good and try to find the answer. I wouldn't change any jets because something else is messed up. Check that schematic breakdown for the carb, too. AND, I hate to say this, but I'm gonna be away from the computer tomorrow. I still want to know how things progress, but I'm sure that several others in here can help while I'm away.... Good luck, Joe |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by savage_joe on 07/16/05 at 19:32:30 Always fun to start with something someone else goofed up :-[ I was thinking it could be the same thing, busted off mixture screw tip, but not too sure how to get it out as it is pretty stripped out. If I can back it out all the way, could I then blow compressed air into a port or something to blow it out? I have taken it apart and cleaned it all out, it was pretty clean when I opened it up. Diaphram looks good, no cracks or anything. I have checked the carb specs. My carb has all the stock jets in it. I was under the assumption that these bikes were jetted lean from the factory, and after they put the mac pipe on it probably made the lean problem worse. The fact that it idles stronger with less smoke when I add a little choke while idling made me think that maybe the pilot jet was too lean (small). I will try to remove the mixture screw to verify the tip condition (and maybe dremel a better slot in it) or call the previous owner to see if I can play with the 86 carb they have, to either steal the mixture screw or just try it as is and see if that helps out at all. Not too sure yet which way I will go, as it all depends if I can get a hold of them or not. Thanks again for all the help. Joe |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by Greg_650 on 07/16/05 at 20:11:09 savage_joe wrote:
No. See, here's the rub. You don't have to play by my rules on your carb. Your carb is more close to pre-EPA when compared to mine. Look at the specs closely. We don't even have the same needle jet or throttle valve. You have a carb that is more like the rest of us in the group wish we had....your carb, as old as it is, is more performance minded. And as a warning, I think that you may really give yourself more headaches if you try putting later model jets in there too....In case you haven't noticed (I've been hinting) :P, your throttle valve (butterfly) is 5 MM bigger than mine. You have a #125 and 95% of the rest of this group have a #120....look on your butterfly to be sure, if that carb is stock, you can't use what we have....or the advice given for it. Your pilot jet is supposed to be a 47.5 and you have 4 more jets that we don't have. All the guts in there are different.... If you can't get that carb to work, maybe someone in here can hook you up with an even better carb....in the long run it may be cheaper and better anyway. Good luck tomorrow |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/17/05 at 02:43:16 Hey Greg 5mm seems to be a big difference in throttle valve size ? Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by Greg_650 on 07/17/05 at 08:00:40 klx650sm2002 wrote:
I'm assuming that 120 vs 125 is a metric measurement just as the jets are sized in millimeters too. And with the differences in stock jetting for those years, it would be even worse to assume that various other parts would be "plug and play" as well. |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by savage_joe on 07/17/05 at 16:49:26 Thanks guys for all the help. I took it apart and cleaned it all up and put everything back to a stock setup. 3 turns out on the mixture screw. White spacer in place. It fired right up with no choke and was idling pretty good, after warming the bike up some I was able to lower the idle speed down and adjust the mixture. Dremel to cut new groove in stripped out mixture screw....priceless ;) Back and forth and mine seems to like 1/2 to 3/4 turns out when hot. Hopefully this means that when cold it will actually need the choke, like it should. I am seeing a slight hesitation coming off idle with some black smoke, but after that it pulls good. Some backfires once in a while on decel, but not too bad. Is this where I may need to swap the white spacer for some 3mm washers? I also see a tiny bit of whitish smoke come out on decel just when the rpms drop down to idle, only a little bit and then it clears right up. I do have the 125 butterfly :D I think one of the passages must have been obstructed or something, because the bike is idling much smoother now and much quieter too. Didn't ride it yet as it is pouring here now :( Thanks again for all the help...Joe |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by Greg_650 on 07/18/05 at 11:06:43 klx650sm2002 wrote:
Okay, so Joe has a #125 throttle plate. I thought so. Since I understand the metric units, maybe that number is the "radius" of the butterfly at 12.5 mm. Just like a 155 main is 1.55 mm. Therefore later models have a #120 or a plate with a 12.0 mm radius. Now, if we could just get people to realize that changing the spacer on earlier carbs may not give the same results as on the later carbs.... ...of course, that's why I posted the specs to begin with.... |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by savage_joe on 07/18/05 at 11:13:22 Thanks again Greg, you helped me out more than you know. I am seeing a slight hesitation coming off idle with some black smoke, but after that it pulls good. Some backfires once in a while on decel, but not too bad. Is this where I may need to swap the white spacer for some 3mm washers? I also see a tiny bit of whitish smoke come out on decel just when the rpms drop down to idle, only a little bit and then it clears right up. Any thoughts on this? I was going to try and richen the jet needle by playing with washers, does this sound right to you? Thanks again...Joe |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by Greg_650 on 07/18/05 at 11:27:37 savage_joe wrote:
So, a good cleaning was all it needed. Good point. That proves to be the "best first" thing to do rather than replacing parts. Right? Black smoke and a little hestitation off idle? Too rich. Not an issue of the spacer. Change your air filter (and drain the airbox). Maybe turn your mixture screw in a little bit more. The occassional backfires or pops are normal after all....not just for the Savage but other air cooled thumpers too. Whitish smoke on decel? Oil. An older engine. Good chance that (as someone else pointed out) you could have old valve guide seals. Could be dried out from sitting a while. The throttle closed decel action causes a more negative pressure (suction) within the combustion chamber (which is partly the reason that you slow down anyway). I wouldn't worry too much.... BTW - whitish smoke can also be rings, but that is more common on accel, AND you already checked the compression anyway. You DO have an early vintage carb. I DO NOT recommend that you follow any of the common practices that you read about in this forum. Your stock carb is probably better tuned than mine as it is. Anything you do will be experimental as far as I see it, but in the future you may be able to assist others with an '86 - '88 carb. You are most welcome, too. |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by savage_joe on 07/18/05 at 11:42:44 Very good point about the old vs the new carbs. All the information I learned on here about the new ones is not going to waste though, as a riding friend has a 95 savage and has the decel popping and such that the owners of the newer bikes complain about. See, now I can help her fix her bike too. Not too sure what you mean about drain my airbox? Drain it of what? I want to get a new air filter for this bike, does K&N make one for the 87? Or any other brands? I will do a few plug chops soon to see how the main jet is doing, once the weather cooperates >:( I will keep an eye on the oil level, but it only emmits a tiny puff of whitish smoke after the throttle is closed, right when the rpms drop to around idle from being revved up, then it stabilizes at idle speed and the exhaust looks good. I was thinking it might be a touch lean on decel, but hardly any backfires now, so you may be right, the high vacuum of a hard decel might just be pulling a little oil from somewhere, but not too bad for 20K miles and almost 20 years old. I would expect some oil burning from either the rings or valve seals at this point. Thanks again. I'll try to post a few pics of the new ride soon. Joe |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by Greg_650 on 07/18/05 at 12:01:20 savage_joe wrote:
A "her" with a '95? Good for you. Now you can be a hero Rule of thumb (sounds good anyway)....black is gas and gray is oil 8) Drain airbox? Your engine breather is connected to the airbox (intentionally) and through it you'll suck water and oil vapors into the airbox. Some get burned through the carb and some condenses in the airbox....after a while quite a bit of gunk can accumulate in the bottom below the filter. You have a big hose hanging down under the bike and it is SUPPOSED to have a plug in it...unless the previous owner did you another "favor". Get a little pan and pull that plug. Nice stuff :P Yes...I think the filter is still the same. Might check Ron Ayers to see if there has been a change in part numbers...it might be in a topic in the Technical Corner too....And BTW, the stock filter will disintegrate if you just try to clean it....I tried. Nope, not too bad...especially considering how all this started. We'll wait for your pics....Ride Safe. |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by savage_joe on 07/18/05 at 12:41:02 Well, it is my girlfriend's brother's girlfriend's bike, so it's all good I do not mind helping out. I have spent a decent amount of time this spring helping him fix up a mid-80's sporty for him to ride. I will look around for the air filter for sure. The air box is clean right now, so I will just keep an eye on it. Thanks for that tip. Now I just have to get my girlfriend on the 87 and get her used to it and I will be all set. I am riding a 96 Vulcan 800 classic right now. But I have 3 other air-cooled thumpers, 2 xrs and a grizzly. I swapped the stock carb out on the xr400 for a mikuni flatslide pumper and it was like night and day, no more bog. I have never had any backfiring on any of my air cooled singles, just this savage so far. Well, rain should be gone in a few days, I'll let you know how eveything works out. Thanks again...Joe |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by Savage_Rob on 07/18/05 at 12:53:26 And there is a K&N (clean & re-oil type) direct swap for the stock air filter. At least there is for the 98 and I would really be surprised if the air filter had been changed. This has been yet another learning thread for me. While I knew the original carbs had better jetting, I didn't realize they were otherwise different. Maybe I should take a better look at the one in the box in the corner of my garage to see what model it is. Hmmmmmmm...... |
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Title: Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/19/05 at 03:31:29 Hey Greg I've been looking at KLX's old CVK 40 and the throttle plate is 39mm. My best geuss about the number is that it is the circumference, so 120 gives 38mm and 125 gives 40mm, what do you think? Clive W :D |
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