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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> EFI Project. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1117605232 Message started by PRH111 on 05/31/05 at 22:53:52 |
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Title: EFI Project. Post by PRH111 on 05/31/05 at 22:53:52 I haven't stopped by here in awhile... I just finished my school project (and school) and now have time to begin that daunting task of building an EFI system for the savage. I am about to begin bashing away at a chip in a couple weeks to get my basic code down. Sensors required: Intake air temp Manifold absolute pressure Throttle position Cylinder head temperature Hardware required: Injector Intake manifold Throttle body Fuel pump Fuel pressure regulator Fuel return line If anyone sees anything I am missing please make a note of it for me. I will be using the stock components to account for where in the rotation the engine is and it will therefore be "wasting" gas by injecting when the intake valve is closed at BDC since the stock ignition fires twice (not knowing when TDC occurs...only when TDC and BDC occur). I already know where to get most of my information for basic numbers on fuel per air density for a given size of engine. There will be no feedback loop to keep the a/f ratio at any specific level initially. I will probably do some type of visual interface (LCD) to give feedback. If I ever complete this project: 1. Is anyone else interested in converting their bikes as well? 2. How much of the work are you willing to do? I can program a chip with my code easy enough after I bash through it and I'd only charge the actual cost of the chip...but I'm not about to solder every circuit board together for everybody free of charge! 3. Would anybody be willing to pay for complete units where I include a charge of around $20 per hour of labor I put in added to the cost of the unit? 4. Would anybody just want the circuit diagrams and chip alone and then they would build everything else themselves if they wanted to convert to EFI? 5. No, I would not be willing to stock every single component involved to make it a "complete" kit...only the electronics involved. 6. Yes, I could do custom features if anybody has good ideas (altering fuel tables by X% every 500rpm for example). 7. No, I would not consider doing an ECU that controls ignition at the same time. |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by lancer on 06/01/05 at 07:01:08 I am interested. Do you have any wild projections about the price range...less than $500...less than $1000...etc? Thanks |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by Savage_Rob on 06/01/05 at 08:33:52 Oh hell no! One of my favorite things about the Savage is it's simplicity. I'll stick with stone knives and bear skins as long as possible. |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by bentwheel on 06/01/05 at 09:05:04 Hello Patrick, This is obviously a very ambitious project you have chosen to undertake. Your understanding of EFI is beyond my knowledge and I unfortunately have nothing profound to offer. It appears you have a good decipherment of this fuel delivery system, and I wish you success with your endeavor. I would however like to remind you of the myriad of problems that can complicate your R&D. I don’t have anything specific to detail but having previously owned an EFI BMW (which ran flawlessly for me but others reported surge and stalling symptoms) and witnessing BMW’s failure to cure its fuel injection problem for several years makes me overwhelmed by your undertaking. I also understand Yamaha is struggling with EFI surge & stalling on its V Strom. I also can’t foresee enough people coming forward and wanting to install an uprated EFI system to such a simple engine. Part of the joy of ownership of a Suzuki Savage is the ease of maintenance and classic simplicity. If building an electronic fuel injection system for the Savage truly interests you, then by all means enjoy your project. I hope my pessimistic honesty hasn’t affronted you. |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by red2k1 on 06/01/05 at 09:21:20 While the project is most interesting, I am in the same school as Savage_Rob. |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by gazab44 on 06/01/05 at 09:30:04 neat project..but why make something that works just fine in its simplicity more complicated :) i have owned cars with sensor here and sensor there and the only things that have gone faulty are the sensors >:( |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by Reelthing on 06/01/05 at 09:44:26 Savage_Rob wrote:
I'll give that an Amen brother - the last thing I want is yet another computer to break and leave me on the side of the road! |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by OffBelay on 06/01/05 at 09:46:06 This sounds like a great project. Others are right, it isn't as easy as a paint job, but there is always fun in the challange. One thing going for you that doesn't exist for factory guys, you don't have to make it perfect. BMW has to account for unburnt ity bity gases detectable only to big instruments. You just have to make it run. It probably won't surge if you shut off the fuel. ;D Keeping things simple is right. But everything is relative. If we change the exhaust, we rejet. If we change the intake, we rejet. If we ride into the mountains, we wish we could rejet. Simple? No, it is a hassle. A good FI doesn't care... it is mapped! Airplane and boat guys have developed controller chips and stuff for various engines from rotarys, big blocks, VWs and subarus. It might be possible you don't have to invent everything. Some of these chips also control the ignition as well as fuel, have on the fly adjustments for both timing and ingection. While testing a map, if pre-ignition is starting, one hit of a control and the timing is retarded a degree or so. I'm interested in what you come up with, and would consider a 'kit'. Good Luck. Dale 'New Owner for an Old Bike' '98 salvaged Savage |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by dannimal on 06/01/05 at 11:31:26 The idea is cool but really not needed on this bike. like everyone else is saying, this is just a simple single cylinder bike. What would it really gain having EFI? If you are going to do it as an "experiment", goto a cycle salvage yard and find a newer crotch rocket that got wiped out. I have seen some with EFI on them or maybe another touring bike of some brand or another. at least You'll be ahead with parts for your project!! |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by bobo383 on 06/01/05 at 19:34:31 You read my mind. I'm thinking the very same thing. I didn't see a processor on your list - are you making the whole thing? Stock GM and Ford pre-OBD-V ECM units (pre-1995 I think) would be fine units to burn a chip for, and already have so much aftermarket sensors and tech support available that's the way I'd go. And they're CHEAP, that does it for me. I think a GM throttle-body (TBI) EFI would adapt the easiest, since it's a wet manifold setup, relatively low fuel pressure, and sooooo simple. You could even use the stock injector and pump. Thousands of late-80's cars available to steal from. Just curious -- Why are you going baseline-only with no feedback? To make it totally closed-loop feedback controlled, all you'd need is an O2 sensor, knock sensor, and aftermarket electronic ignition module to vary the timing. That would really bring out the benefits of fuel injection, I think. I guess you could say I'm interested.... |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by babbalou on 06/01/05 at 21:09:49 Interesting project. I read an article on the Suzuki M50 in Motorcycle Consumer News & they liked what the 32 bit engine management system did for the engine. It's a similar system to the new Gixxer 1000. I wonder if a future S40/Savage might have one. If they had a reliable system that would optimize the ignition curve & fuel injection for maximum power at all RPMs factoring in engine load, air density, throttle position & intake vacuum it would be cool to see how it ran. One nice thing is that it would automatically compensate jetting for muffler swaps. I'm happy with the carb but I'm always wondering about those unknown possibilities. 8) |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by diesel on 06/01/05 at 21:41:36 K.I.S.S. |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by klx650sm2002 on 06/02/05 at 05:03:03 45mm throttle bodies would be a good place to start. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by Greg_650 on 06/03/05 at 15:00:55 klx650sm2002 wrote:
Mr Clive W. "Airflow" has done it again ::) Do the exhaust too... |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by klx650sm2002 on 06/04/05 at 05:35:01 This is hypothetical as the Savage's ports won't go that big but if you were looking for maximum output you would use a 46.7mm i.d. carb and inlet port. For the exhaust port and first 8-9" of the header you need an i.d. of 39.7mm tapering out to 46.7mm over a distance of 1.5". Continue the 46.7mm i.d. untill you are 39" from the port then step up to 53mm for 4.5" then into the open air. By which time you would want to change the cam and so the pipe,it neverends. Of course this can't be done and if it could it would run like a bag of nuts most of the time. A Raask pipe and amal 38mm carb would be the safe option. Any 38mm i.d. header in fact. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by klx650sm2002 on 06/04/05 at 05:53:53 Also I forgot, as Greg says "do the exhaust too", I am presuming he is refering to that "nasty exhaust port". Anyone who has seen inside the ex port will know what I mean. It apears that the circular "restriction" can be opened up to 38mm without worry, but the flat part at the top of the port can not have much taken off and needs carefull measuring. See Exhaust port. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by PRH111 on 06/17/05 at 08:54:33 I want to do this simply for the challenge of it. It will also give me a nice big fat line on my resume if I ever decide to get out of RF theory and go into the embedded design/ microcontrollers field. I am going to try to start on a Microchip PIC 16F88 chip (8 ADC I/O pins, 16 I/O pins total, CCP, PWM, UART, MSSP, 20MHZ, 4K memory, 352bytes of ram space). If need be I'll go to a more powerful chip later but the 16F88 runs about $4. The most expensive part (other than my time) would be the PCB...on small orders it can be as high as $60 per circuit board on a 6" X 7" circuit board. I plan to do my testing as such: Drive in the morning when it is cool, then day when it is warmer. Then I'd do a morning drive to a nearby mountain (you can get to 7000ft elevation by vehicle on mount rainier). Followed up by the mid-day warmer drive back down the mountain. Final tests would be me riding every single time we get rain here (quite often) to make sure the electronics are sealed up well against humidity. I figure 3-4 months to program the MCU, 3-4 months to put it all together and another 2-3 months of testing. The only problem is I can't do miniaturization of the circuit as I have very little experience dealing with surface mount components so if there are any electronics assemblers with that type of experience out there I'd like to make arrangements with you...I'll engineer the system but you slap it together. Other than that the circuit board will be somewhat large (6" X 7" is what I envision currently)... I am avoiding closed loop to keep it simple. If desired maybe I'll build in an option to accept input from a wide band bosch O2 sensor but that is a hefty project in itself. Lucky for me I'm not married so my free time away from work is my free time to work on whatever projects I want and I'm sure my kids would love to be involved anyways. Tentative start date is September. |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by PRH111 on 06/17/05 at 09:01:36 Just to add: I am hoping that I can keep the cost of the ECU under $250 completely assembled and tested . I'm still not sure if I want to keep all of the other components on hand though...but I don't mind testing a bunch of different sensors to see which ones are compatible to find the cheapest units that can meet the full requirements. (definitely won't stock the fuel components but I may get a bunch of the sensors because my experimentation may find that there are only a select number of sensors that work for their output signal and the space requirements on the engine). Warranty on the ECU would be lifetime of the bike...just please don't crack open the case and spill a beer on the circuit and ask me to repair it for you! As I said previously I plan to do this work all open source (helps me by having others troubleshoot my work for added features or to correct anything that could be done more efficiently since I am still quite green as an electronics engineer)...as long as people give proper credit when using my code or circuit. |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by PRH111 on 06/17/05 at 09:04:20 The ECU will probably be designed for in circuit programming or I will socket it and leave the code un-encrypted just to make it easier for me to add updates and features. I could even have a list of everyone who has the ECU, send out a chip when I make changes and then the owner replaces the chip and sends back the old one (because I really don't want to buy a billion chips) which I can then reprogram in the future. |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by Kaishaku on 06/17/05 at 17:59:43 PRH111 wrote:
Isn't this a big deal? |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by Mr 650 on 06/17/05 at 22:18:56 Homebrew EFI; :o more power to ya. It could really make a difference in performance. We will let your bike be the guinea pig for the initial experiment. I like Bobo's idea of modifing a tried and true ECU (vs. home brew) & integrate aftermarket ignition, if you are looking for a market. The watercooled 650 EFI BMW thumper makes 50Hp but the compression is at least 2 points higher, something the Savage design may not handle w/o knock sensor. Still is is a cool project and having a bike that cranks and idles instantly w/o choke would be great. |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by PRH111 on 06/19/05 at 20:50:40 Kaishaku wrote:
No, many multi-port batch fire automotive injection systems do the exact same thing. Only true sequential fired multi-port injection fires at the exact necessary time and the improvement in gas mileage is really only marginal (though there is no difference in power if I remember correctly). A stock EFI from another vehicle requires all the sensors off of that vehicle and I have no access to their code for making modifications because obviously there is more than just the compression giving it more power (I'm guessing the a/r ratio is more favorable for high rpm as well as the cam). The injection would still provide fuel for a 50hp engine even though the savage makes only 1/2 of that. You could reduce fuel pressure or put in a different injector size to compensate but you have to hope that you can find an injector using the same impedance of appropriate size with the same style of feed (side or top). |
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Title: Re: EFI Project. Post by bobo383 on 06/20/05 at 04:24:43 Very true. It's definitely worth experimenting with. PRH111 wrote:
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