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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> opinions on white spacer and richening carb /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1114878413 Message started by Russ on 04/30/05 at 09:26:53 |
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Title: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by Russ on 04/30/05 at 09:26:53 Just looking for feed back on the info about removing the white spacer from the carb and richening it up a bit. My 96 runs generally well. I'm not really concerned about the occasional backfire. Will i see a noticeble improvement in my bike by doing this mod? I'm not really interested in re-jetting or anything as I just have stock air intake and muffler. I've seen conflicting posts on the white spacer. some say remove it - some say decrease the size etc............This is the post i'm referring to - TIA ************************************************************************** Getting back to your Savage 650, Coney, here's how we can specifically cure its problem. We need to richen those two areas of the curburetion curve that are factory set on the ridiculous side of leanness. Remove the diaphragm slide from the carburetor and look down inside its bore. Two small screws hold a plate over the slide needle. Removing the plate, you'll see a small, white plastic spacer with a hole through it sitting on top of the needle. Throw that spacer away and reinstall the plate. A spring under the needle clip will now push the needle up to the plate occupying the space vacated by the white spacer. The distance that the needle has been 'lifted' is the thickness of the discarded spacer - and that's ideal. With the needle raised, more fuel will flow by it, meeting the actual needs of midrange running. We can also fatten up the low end of your bike's carburetor by turning out the low-speed mixture screw. To gain access to this screw, you'll need to drill out the brass plug pressed in over it and yank it out with a sheet-metal screw attached to a slide hammer. You'll find that plug up high on the right side of the carb about where the mouth enters the carburetor. Usually Suzuki applies a splash of white paint over the brass plug so that it's immediately noticeable. With the engine warmed up and idling, turn the mixture screw out incrementally until you achieve the highest idle. There will be no doubt in your mind that you're making progress because the idle will come up and sound stronger. At this point, turn the idle adjuster knob out and bring the idle back down to a leisurely gait. Just these two, relatively simple adjustments will not only eliminate the backfire, they will make an amazing improvement in throttle response and driveability. ************************************************************************** |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by bentwheel on 04/30/05 at 09:34:03 I would not remove the spacer as this COULD lead to excessive richness. Rather, for your first attempt, reduce the thickness of the white spacer to 1/2 and test its response. |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by sluggo on 04/30/05 at 09:45:08 with out rejetting, i don't believe it's worth dealing with the white space. big singles backfire it's no big deal. just my opinion 8) |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by bentwheel on 04/30/05 at 10:30:16 sluggo wrote:
Well, sure you would not be rejetting but you would be enriching the main jet's capabilities via the higher jet needle position. Why not correct the obvious leanness by fine tuning the needle to help the midrange? |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by sluggo on 04/30/05 at 10:42:34 bentwheel wrote:
my point is why just do the job half way. jet costs like 3 bucks. if your going to do a job, do it right, the first time. |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by bentwheel on 04/30/05 at 11:16:27 I hear ya. |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by Russ on 04/30/05 at 12:39:15 Ok, so if i rejet - just the main jet?? the 152.5 referred to in previous posts? I'd probably rejet - but i can 100% for sure say i'm not changing exhaust any time soon. So would rejetting, removing half the stock spacer, and then adjusting the air mixture screw get me noticeable more power? Like i said i don't care too much about back firing. My bike does it a little now but no big deal. As long as the above mods don't make the bike backfire more. |
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Title: oh ya - tach as well Post by Russ on 04/30/05 at 12:40:00 Who's got an opinion on a nice looking not too expensive tach for the Savage? |
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Title: being a pest Post by Russ on 04/30/05 at 12:57:55 What exactly should I be asking the local bike shop for? 152.5 jet for a mikuni carb and the spacer? What is the spacer? I haven't looked at the exisiting one yet. Is there a part number for it? |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by bentwheel on 04/30/05 at 13:18:24 If you are going to make performance enhancements to your carb do them in single steps. First do the 1/2 spacer and turn out the air mixture screw. Test ride the changes and see what you think. The nice thing is it costs nothing. If you want to go a step further, install a one size larger main jet and monitor the richness by reading the spark plug. Do a plug chop. Run the bike at full throttle, then close the throttle quickly pull in the clutch and kill the ignition. This way when you read your plug it will be a main jet reading. Be carefull doing this on the road. At this point you should notice a small improvement in performance. It's up to you if you want to go any further. If you only go up one size in main jet you are usually ok to keep the stock idle jet. It's when you greatly vary between the idle circuit; slow speed circuit and the high speed circuit that enhancements are needed at the idle circuit. |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by Ed_L. on 04/30/05 at 18:51:34 Adjusting the low speed mixture screw and shaving the white spacer is well worth the effort. It made a noticable improvement on my '02 when I did it last year. If your planning to rejet the main a 152.5 is probably as large as you can go without changing out the exhaust and air filter. Do all three changes and smile at the difference. |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by lancer on 04/30/05 at 20:09:46 An engine that backfires, through the carb or the exhaust, is malfunctioning. I have owned 3 single cylinder bikes in my life, a 1956 BSA Goldstar, 1978 Yamaha SR 500, and now a 1996 Suzuki Savage. None of these bikes backfire, and that was and is because the carburetors were/are properly jetted. The Goldstar was set up correctly when I bought it and remained that way...it ran with an Amal Grand Prix carb with a seperate float bowl. The SR 500 did backfire a little initially, but was corrected by rejetting the carb. The Savage backfired a lot when new, but has since been corrected and it no longer backfires either. I ride my bike pretty hard, and I love the sound of the engine/exhaust when running hard and then backing off the throttle...that howling-rumbling-crackling deceleration just does my soul good...and not a single backfire. Why should a single backfiring be considered normal and not a 2, 3, or 4 cylinder engine? An engine is an engine is an engine...they all work the same way, are tuned the same way. There is no reason for a Savage to backfire if you take the time to jet the carburetor properly...especially the pilot circuit. |
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Title: Re: oh ya - tach as well Post by Reelthing on 04/30/05 at 20:50:26 Russ wrote:
http://www.phatperformanceparts.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=BA-7564-01 couple of us installed this one - has held up so far and looks good |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by WD on 04/30/05 at 23:04:16 Looks like I'm gonna have to crack my carb open soon. Rode it around the parking lot Thursday, and it was popping like crazy. I'm hoping just due to stale gas, but, I doubt it. My pipe is almost fully open, and even with a filthy air cleaner, the exhaust pitch is sounding "tinny", which usually means WAY too lean a mixture. With a long open pipe and a fresh air filter, I'm guessing I'll need to fuly delete the spacer AND upsize both jets. >:( Neither of which makes me very happy. >:( If I liked fighting crappy carbs I'd have kept my 1964 T120 Bonne-VILES. >:( Wonder if an S&S Super E would work on a Savage? Since those are set up for 80" engines, and the Savage is a 40" engine... -WD |
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Title: Re: Barons tach Post by Russ on 05/01/05 at 08:26:46 On the link for the tach page it says Single fire ignitions require an adapter (available separately). Are they referring to single cylinder engines? If so, what's the other piece required? |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by slavy on 05/01/05 at 09:06:53 Russ, There are couple of rules about the carburetor operation. 1.The mixture screw under the plug and the pilot jet determine how the bike works at idle. The Savages are set as lean as possible just before the bike starts to missfire. Enrichenning this cirquit helps with the cold start and reduces the backfire when You descell . 2. The redusing of the spacer thickness will help 1/4 trottle - 3/4 trottle / basically the most usable range/. 3. The main jet will determine how the bike is running at "open trottle". This is a simplified explanation of the carb operation. In the real life this is not a full truth, because this cirquits overlap. Anyway- if You don't think You ride the bike at full trottle- You might not change the main jet. If You don't care about the lean missfire at descell or for You the bike is idling perfect and responding to the trottle from idle RPMs the way You want - don't touch this cirquit. If You concider that it is too complicated to deal with the white spacer and You just like a nice slow cruise with a jentle acceleration - then just leave the bike alone. I have found only one post against the mods- John D claimed "stock rocks". So far everybody here agrees that the carb mods are well worthed the time /and the $3 for the bigger main jet/. For me the wistling sound of a stock 96 exhaust sucks, but You like it , so everybody has an oppinion. If You are a very busy person and if You like the bike the way it is-don't touch it. |
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Title: Done Post by Russ on 05/01/05 at 15:47:28 Well i wasn't brave enough to grind down the existing white spacer or anything, so i used a rubber O-ring that is about half the thickness. Put that in place and turned out the air mixture screw 2 full turns. I was leary as to wether this mod would actually do anything, but after a quick burn i definetly notice a difference in 2nd and 3rd gears. Especially when leaning on the throttle after just shifting into 2nd. It now sounds like it's getting the gas it was missing but it really sounds like it's thirsty for more air. Maybe i'll change my mind and do the exhaust and put a k&n in.....or maybe i'll just start by changing the jet to a 150 and see what happens. Anyway, for the 20 minutes it took to do it was worth it. Isn't any worse that's for sure. Hardest part of anything on this bike is that darn tank. I don't have to remove the "pet-thingy" :) on mine but I do have to hop on one foot and bite my tongue while i lift and pull at just the right place on the tank. Anyway thanks for all the help everyone. Think I'll just enjoy the week riding before I start in with 100 questions on mufflers........what did people do before the internet and boards like this anyway???? |
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Title: Baron's tachs Post by Russ on 05/01/05 at 15:51:14 Forgot - can anyone clarify the "single fire ignition" on the Baron's tach? Are extra components needed for the Savage? thanks |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by bentwheel on 05/01/05 at 20:10:20 Good job on your carb tuning Russ. Did you get that warm, fuzzy feeling after you shut her down? As far as the single fire ignition is concerned, I am not entirely confident my answer is correct, and if not, I am sure someone will confirm or correct me. I think it refers to ignition systems that fire only once on compression stroke during the four cycle process. Some engines fire twice during the cycle and the second spark is considered a wasted spark as it occurs when the exhaust valve is open. Harley Davidson uses this method and it adds to their distinctive exhaust note. I may be wrong here but I think the Savage also has a wasted spark. This second spark interferes with the tach signal unless it is processed electronically. |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by lancer on 05/01/05 at 20:21:07 When I bought my tach something was said about the possibility of needing some kind of electronic adapter, so I bought it along with the tach. When I hooked the tach up it worked OK so did not need the adapter. |
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Title: Re: Baron's tachs Post by Reelthing on 05/02/05 at 04:42:08 Russ wrote:
Nothing is needed for the tach to work on Savage - you may end up needing to shield the wires at the coil if it bounces around enough to bother you |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by Reelthing on 05/02/05 at 05:07:12 bentwheel wrote:
My understanding that is correct - and true of most singles anyway - they fire like a 2-stroke engine because of the pulse trigger off the crank they fire each time the piston goes to tdc (or 8-12 deg before whatever the advance) and the spark box is not built to skip a beat - so the tach is. |
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Title: Re: Done Post by Reelthing on 05/02/05 at 05:38:22 Russ wrote:
We broke a lot more stuff some really expensive stuff :o :-/ |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by russ_g on 05/02/05 at 07:37:36 Thanks for the info on the tach guys. Think I'll see if i can get them to ship one to Canada. As far as the "warm fuzzy feeling".... ya felt good. :) |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by mornhm on 05/02/05 at 07:59:26 Kinda highjacking this thread back to asking for opinions. I have a 2004 Savage (almost new). It seems to start fine when cold (32 degrees last week & 39 degrees this morning - fired right up - couple of seconds on full choke - then down to 1/2 choke and then done with choking). It also hasn't backfired at all. It does kinda "putt putt" when backing off the throttle while shifting but nothing major. Accelerates fine in all gears up to 65 mph (fast as I've ridden it). I would have thought the lean mixture problems for starting would have been more severe the colder the air/engine temperature. Will backfiring only show up when the weather gets warm or after riding the bike hard? Did I get lucky? Did something change recently in the factory tuning? Or am I just not real picky (I'm not looking for snap my head back power)? What are the efficiency ramifications of the mods being discussed here (what will it do to my gas mileage)? Thanks |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by Reelthing on 05/02/05 at 08:38:54 how much elevation you have to go with that 32deg? |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by russ_g on 05/02/05 at 09:35:43 mornhm - you pretty much described my bike. Mine rarely backfired. Usually only when warm and only when letting off the throttle fast. Sometimes when I turned off the bike I'd get a quiet "thwoomp" from the pipe. But if you weren't on the bike or close you probably wouldn't have heard it. I was more interested to see if the mod would help performance at all. And I agreed with a post from the board a while back, that an engine is an engine is an engine and if it's tuned right for it's environment then there should be no backfiring.........so anyway backfiring aside, I have noticed an improvement in performance as i described above. Plus I just like to tinker. One of the main reasons I've decided to keep a relatively simple bike like the Savage. 2 months ago I knew what a carb did but had never looked at one in detail or heaven forbid taken one apart. Now I have a much better understanding of what goes into making one work. Try the mod. If you're worried, keep the white spacer aside and use an O-ring like i did. Don't even have to remove the carb to get at the white spacer. Worst case scenario is you put the spacer back in. It's pretty obvious by how the engine runs at idle if you're making the right adjustments on the mixture screw so that's an easy step there as well. |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by mornhm on 05/02/05 at 10:32:48 Reelthing - 750 ft (Central Illinois) Barometer 30.1 Russ_g - did you pay any attention to your gas mileage? Do you have before/after mod data? |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by russ_g on 05/02/05 at 10:39:07 No - i've only been riding it for a day. But, to be honest at $8 (~ 89 cents/litre.....you imperial guys will have to do the math) to fill, it could halve it and i would still be happy. |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by Mr 650 on 05/03/05 at 14:20:27 I read here (Greg, I think) that the Savage is a "wasted spark" ignition and a tach will read wrong. I believe you have set it to "2 cyl". bentwheel wrote:
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by russ_g on 05/03/05 at 14:30:37 There is nothing to set on the tach i got. Guy said it was for 2 cylinder engines. He wasn't sure if it would work on a Savage or not, but after reading the above posts I didn't think i would need any extra "parts". Oh well I'll hook it up and see what happens. |
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by Mr 650 on 05/03/05 at 14:53:11 Singles are unique as their exhaust pulse is alone in the pipe. The reversion in the pipe will scramble the intake sometimes. Multi-cylinder engines benefit from the scavenge effect of it's neighboring cylinders ( works up and down the tach)something singles lack and resonance in the pipe, in conjunction to CARB/EPA lean carb (this may soon be the end of the Savage >:()make for backfire. If KLX is listening, perhaps expand on this, as that is more his bag. The EPA may say it is right, but if it is re-tuned the backfire can be reduced or even eliminated and you should see better response. If your trap speed/ lap time is good and it backfires some, so what? ??? I have heard winners backfire. On the stock ’01, by fattening the idle screw and adjusting the idle w/ (almost) stock exhaust, big boomers practically disappeared, and an occasional small pop on the gear change. Still fiddling w/ this new CV carb. :P russ_g wrote:
lancer wrote:
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Title: Re: opinions on white spacer and richening carb Post by klx650sm2002 on 05/05/05 at 08:15:25 As far as correcting EPA lean mix goes I know no more than anyone else, tickover mix screw 2-3 turns out, 1/2 the thickness of the white spacer and fit a 150,152.5 or 155 main jet depending on filter/pipe/muffler. Clive W :D |
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