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Message started by sunny on 04/04/05 at 10:53:24

Title: my disaster
Post by sunny on 04/04/05 at 10:53:24

yes. i have done some work and now have a disaster that won't run on my hands.

it's an electrical problem, which is kinda funny since i never TOUCHED the electrical system when i was doing stuff.
i must have broken a wire somewhere however.

now, at first, the problem was intermittant. i'd turn the bike on. lift my weight off the seat to roll it back, and it would die. sit down, and it would start.
i was thinking grounding wire messed up. but i can't find it.

last week i turned the key, got lights, started it up all i got was 4 electrical pops and it abruptly died. no lights even. (also no smoke or electrical fried smell)

yesterday after removing the starter switch from the handlebar and cleaning out the black widow's nest, i turned the key, and got lights again. but the ignition switch gave me no sound whatsoever.
tried roll starting it down the hill, but out of six tries to start i got two coughs out of it.

the only work i did on the bike originally was to remove the airbox to make way for a pod filter. rejetted the carb again. replaced the cylinder head cap. in order to facilitate the pod fitting i've slanted the battery box at a 45 degree angle along the frame.
oh yeah, i removed the rear turn signals and taped up the ends with electrical tape.

and i so feel like a failure. mechanical stuff i can deal with, electrical stuff i'm totally lost. i'm thinking about converting to kick start again.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by tarheel365 on 04/04/05 at 11:17:46

some of the symptoms sound like what happened to me.

check and tighten all ur electrical plugs...mainly the green one under the seat(my solution).

check for a short.

good luck

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by slavy on 04/04/05 at 11:49:25

It is better this way, because it is very hard to diagnise intermittant. If You can use test light You should be able to fix the problem:
1. make sure the 2 fuses under the seat are good and the wires are connected. If so there should be always power to the Red/White wire in the black rellay above the carb /You make sure it is connected good/. Make sure the 3wire connector / Y/B , B/W, B / for the starter rellay is connected.
2. If No start- pull the clutch switch connector and jump between the 2wires.
3 . Try it - it should start. If no- will keep going deeper.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by Greg_650 on 04/04/05 at 11:56:01

sunny wrote:

the only work i did on the bike originally was to remove the airbox to make way for a pod filter. rejetted the carb again. replaced the cylinder head cap. in order to facilitate the pod fitting i've slanted the battery box at a 45 degree angle along the frame.
oh yeah, i removed the rear turn signals and taped up the ends with electrical tape.

.

You say the "only" work that you have done on the bike is just that? :o

All of "that" involves a few wires along the way.....including turning the battery on a 45, which I'm not sure is a good idea....but under the seats and behind the airbox are a bunch of wires as you know.

You found a spider in the switch housing and you aren't an entomologist. I bet that if you pull off the seats and start checking again, you'll be able to fix it without being an electrician either. Look for a dead short, an open, and check the fuses too....those wires can get pinched under the seat too.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by sunny on 04/04/05 at 12:10:29

that's just it.
i've pulled, poked, reseated, and prodded. most of the time i have no clue what i'm doing. at one point i thought it was the small wire that comes off the battery connection's negative side. but i'm not so sure now, as i've reseated and checked that end of the wire numerous times.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by Greg_650 on 04/04/05 at 12:14:41

Does the horn blow at all? Even weak is okay.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by sunny on 04/04/05 at 12:46:13

horn blows. lights come on.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by Mr 650 on 04/04/05 at 13:35:55

I think you have already cleaned any corrosion from battery terminals (vingar will work).

While the motor was last running you heard something pop 4 times?
Sounds maybe like a pinched or loose wire.

At this point I would be looking around for a short to ground o rblown fuse.
Beyond that, will have to go through and find where the 12V "ain't".
Need to know what is working.
1st check the lights and blinkers that will work and include the running and brake light.

"started it up all i got was 4 electrical pops and it abruptly died."

sunny wrote:

horn blows. lights come on.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by sunny on 04/04/05 at 14:02:21

i apologize for the confusion my lack of caffiene has caused.

i tried to start it up and only got 4 electrical pops then the lights went out. after that, pressing the start button didn't even result in clicking.
and as of yesterday the battery has self charged up enough to give power to the lights and horn, but no clicking when pressing the black start button.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by bobo383 on 04/04/05 at 17:44:56

I wish I was there to take it apart with you and figger it out. I think the 45degree battery tilt is going to be a bad deal in the long run, but ain't your immediate problem. You can keep the tilted battery if you go to a totally sealed gel cell kind of deal.

Don't worry about being frustrated - it usually means you're about to learn something.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by Greg_650 on 04/05/05 at 05:30:06

sunny wrote:

I don't understand "4 electrical pops". Are these a mechanical sound or something like a "zap". You haven't mentioned the fuses. Are they good?

Since you had the switch housing apart, how about the kill switch? How about the other interlocks?

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by sunny on 04/05/05 at 08:08:28

electrical zaps.

tested the connectors on the starter relay and they receive power and dturn the engine over, so now i think i blew a fuse between starter button and starter relay..

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by Kropatchek on 04/05/05 at 08:09:57

Check the wireloom that comes from the ignitionswitch.
The loom passes over the frame and is squeezed by the seat. Cut the insulation off and you will find the broken wire/connection there.
Happened to me this afternoon , thats why i did not post it yet.

Greetz
Kropatchek ;D

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by Mr 650 on 04/05/05 at 08:30:26

Relays can go bad too.
Let us know what's up.
Bound to happen again somewhere.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by Greg_650 on 04/06/05 at 05:28:48

sunny wrote:

electrical zaps.

tested the connectors on the starter relay and they receive power and dturn the engine over, so now i think i blew a fuse between starter button and starter relay..

Are you saying that the engine turns over but won't start?

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by sunny on 04/06/05 at 07:40:06

it starts when you lay a screwdriver across the screw connectors on the starter relay.

took the handlebar switch apart last night and cleaned it out.
both fuses were fine(checked them with a multimeter to be sure).

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by Mr 650 on 04/06/05 at 14:51:43

Sunny I hope you found the loose connection.
Sounds like the harness from the bars, no fun.
Might have to hide a small temp auxillary starter switch and just run new wire to the relay to get by until you can take the thing all apart and find and repair the fault. Black tape and ty-wraps can work wonders when you just wanna ride.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by Greg_650 on 04/08/05 at 08:25:40

sunny wrote:

Since you can start the bike with a screw driver, then the connection from the relay to the starter and to ground is okay. You also have +12 on the relay, so forget about that.

What is missing is the circuit on the B/W and Y/B wires. Those 2 wires plus a B wire are in a 3 wire connector to the relay. Those 2 wires do what your screw driver does.

You say that you hear nothing, right? No clicks? That means that the Decompression Solenoid isn't working either. Did you try this with the side stand down and clutch lever pulled in, or with the side stand up and clutch lever pulled in?

You do have a green nuetral light, right? Is the little blue wire below the clutch lever on the right rear side of the engine case okay? That wire goes up under the tank, and since you pulled out the airbox, I'd also look at that because it was behind the airbox.

The Y/B wire comes from the Decompression Module which is right above the carb under the seat. That is where I would start and work backwards. What puts power on the Y/B wire to energize the starter relay is the Y/G wire (notice different color) which comes from the starter button....and also goes through the clutch lever switch. Check the connector on the clutch lever. If you need to, pull the connector off and put a small jumper across that and check again.

If you still can't get it to start, pull the tank. Then go into the Technical Corner and get the electrical schematics. That is what I am looking at now. Something has happened to either the positive supply side to the Decompression module, or to B/W negative ground side which goes through the side stand relay, side stand switch, and the side stand diode. Since the fuses are okay, you have a disconnected wire somewhere.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by sunny on 04/08/05 at 09:18:42

i'm currently working on the idea that it is the control unit.

i removed the tank and checked continuity(with my handy dandy multimeter) in the various wires from the starter button itself and all is well.
i untaped the entire wiring harness and inspected it carefully for breaks and unplugged wires.

when i tested connectors in the control unit, i found that there is one connection that is closed all the time. since, from my limited understanding of whatthe clymer manual was trying to say, it is supposed to be a timed connection on the condition that there is electricity present on the other prongs, i am guessing something is awry.

since i currently have no money, i shall do some more testing on it, maybe even get up the guts to do the battery test as the manual suggests, and i will let you all know.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by Greg_650 on 04/08/05 at 10:11:59

sunny wrote:

Money isn't needed. You have a handy dandy multimeter and schematics :)

Step one....with the ignition key ON, do you have 12 volts on one side of the starter button?

Step two....if step one is yes, do you have 12 volts at the clutch lever switch when you push the starter button?

Step three....if one and two are yes, do you have 12 volts at the yellow/green wire on the connector at the decomp module?

Do all these checks using the red lead and with the black lead connected to the frame somewhere.

Why do battery test?...you jumped it with a screw driver and the lights and horn work, anyway.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by slavy on 04/08/05 at 11:39:28

You have 2 fat wires and 2 thin wires in the starter rellay. The 2 thin wires are Y/B and B/W. You should have ground / - / on the B/W. Turn the ignition ON. Take a piece of wire and jump from "+ " terminal of the rellay /always connected to the "+" of the battery/ to the Y/B wire of the rellay. You should hear a click and the bike should start. If NO - check again the ground side B/W and if it is OK- bad starter rellay.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by Greg_650 on 04/08/05 at 11:52:35

slavy wrote:

You are right...the B/W is ground, but Sunny said there was "no click" and in reality there should be 2 simultaneous ones. One for the decomp solenoid followed quickly by the relay. Since she has none, the problem probably isn't the starter relay. She isn't getting 12 volts to the decomp module....and the Y/B wire to the relay comes from that module.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by slavy on 04/08/05 at 15:25:27

The very first thing to create problems to the starting sistem of any Suzuki is the clutch switch. Jumper made of piece of insulted wire will ensure the switch is not the reason. All my Suzukis are like this.
Key -ON, Start button -pushed - There should be power on the Y/G wire of the qwestionable black decompr. controller. If there is power there and there is no power in the Y/B wire in the same moment- Bad black decompr. controller.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by Greg_650 on 04/08/05 at 15:31:00

We are beginning to repeat, I think :o

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by sunny on 04/08/05 at 15:51:30

i've printed out the entire thread.

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by Greg_650 on 04/08/05 at 15:54:49

Cool. Just work that Handy Dandy Multimeter and go get 'em :P

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by Mr 650 on 04/09/05 at 09:32:22

WHEN IN DOUBT, - JUMP IT OUT!

Safeties?! We don' need no stinkin' Safeties! >:(

Title: Re: my disaster
Post by sunny on 04/11/05 at 07:46:34

ok. the final result is that it runs.

two friends came over while i was on an errand and looked it over. they disconnected all the electrics and reconnected everything. then took the key from the kids and it started right up. they have no clue and neither do i.

dave, an aircraft mech, said the electrics were far too complicated to be on such a simple bike. he offered to create and send me a simplified wiring diagram. i may take him up on that offer, if just for future use. if so i will also offer it to you all.

but for now i am SO not going to look this gift horse in the mouth.