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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Newbie with Questions /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1111530626 Message started by hellstorm on 03/22/05 at 14:30:26 |
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Title: Newbie with Questions Post by hellstorm on 03/22/05 at 14:30:26 First I would like to say how helpful I find this board, I have found it to be a wealth of information and read alot of posts before I decided to purchase my Savage. I ran across a 1996 with 4K miles and picked it up for 700.00. The problem is it needs a new cam, rockers and my brother suggested checking the oil pump so I also got the notorious cylinder oil plug and a complete gasket set. My first question is to check the oil pump I need to access the left side of the engine. Is there anything I should know or be made aware of before I start disassembling the engine. I also through the suggestions of people on this board purchase the mac performance slip-on muffler. Figured since its going to be torn down, might as well do it all at once. I am also looking at the dial a jet for the carb, any input on that would be greatly appreciated. Finally I am thinking about swapping out the stock shocks for 12" or 13" progressives, will this affect the tracking of the belt drive greatly or will i be alright? I am 6' and 225 lb and the bike is a little short for me with the stock shocks. Go figure someone actually wants to raise the ass end instead of lower it. Any help or input is greatly appreciated and welcome. Thanks!!! Brian |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by bobo383 on 03/22/05 at 17:45:37 Needing a new cam & rockers? Sounds like gas got in the oil and it was ridden anyway. A dead (killed, engine off) Savage can get gas through the intake form carb flooding, or through the vacuum port fromt he petc0ck. Mine had both, and a leaking float valve. Might consider changing out the automatic vacuum petcock with a new one or converting it to manual operation. Also, since you have the carb off, make sure you have a 152.5 or 155 main jet, a half-thickness white spacer on the needle, and drill out the brass plug over the mixture screw. This way you won't have to re-jet if you change pipes. I put a sportster muff on mine, love it. Good luck with all this. Plenty of guys on this site will give you your $700 back for the bike if you get frustrated. |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by bobo383 on 03/22/05 at 18:12:14 Forgot the most important part - take digital photos or Polaroids as you dissasemble everything, so you can remember how it goes back together several weeks later. |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by sluggo on 03/22/05 at 19:10:47 bobo383 wrote:
or in some cases years :( just ask wd |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by slavy on 03/22/05 at 21:28:42 First thing- very good deal ! About the rocker arms-no way around buying new ones. About the cam shaft- instead of buyng a new why don't You send it to be reground? If I am correct somebody had it done for $100,/ which is cheaper than a new cam/ ,and also had it made with more lift. Just post a question. One more suggestion- change the cam chain. Usually Your problem is caused by a lack of maintenance and the very first thing to suffer is the timind chain. If You don't change it now You are risking a brocken chain not too far from now. So far I have never heard about a bad oil pump on a Savage. |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by WD on 03/22/05 at 21:31:14 Hey...that's not funny. Bike has only been apart for three days...really long days... Definitely take pics of the small parts as you take them out. Small part means anything smaller than the engine, the assembled engine. When (not if) the engine needs cracked open on mine, I'm sending it to someone else for repairs. Just the photos in the service book are enough to give me nightmares. And this from a man who tears down and rebuilds flathead and other vintage engines for fun. Carb mods? Hey Sluggo, how far from my house are you? -WD |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by sluggo on 03/22/05 at 21:43:37 WD wrote:
i'm probably about 3 hrs out from pewy al op. now that the appearance mods are nearly complete (i doubt it ever will be fully compete) i'm starting to think of the performance mods. first up keeping up with the theme of the bike i'm putting on a used super trapp (max i made up my mind). then going for the rejet and half spacer mod. if i had the bucks i would go for a full blown engine mod, making it a monster, but that will have to wait. |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by woodworker on 03/23/05 at 02:48:44 hellstorm wrote:
The following pic shows how far you have to go to get at the oil pump http://members.shaw.ca/kenerechook/oil%20pump.JPG There is not a heck of a lot you can do to the oil pump, as it is not serviceable, suggest you replace with a new one, if you do go this far, also suggest you check all crankcase bearings and replace as required, while you are at it! |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by hellstorm on 03/23/05 at 04:40:55 Ok new question before I crack open the case, how could gas get into the oil? It only has 4k miles. As far as the cam goes, I got a brandy new one from RonAyers.com for $96.45. I thought about having the old cam reground, but it chewed up the rockers pretty well and one lobe had a prety noticable flat spot, so figured new was cheaper. Thanks. Brian |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by Greg_650 on 03/25/05 at 06:38:54 You do know that you'll have to split the crankcase halves to get to the oil pump, right? The only part accessible under the right clutch cover is the oil pump drive gear, so this will be a big job. You have a manual? |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by hellstorm on 03/25/05 at 08:14:11 Yeah, I have a manual and I'm not really looking forward to it, just want to get it done and get it running. What happened was the original owner sealed somethings with permatex instead of using a gasket and the dealer found it in the oil and the carb sooooooo. The guy I bought it from had an estimate to fixit and labor was for 9 hours. I'm not under any deadline so if i take my time I think I'll be fine. If i run into any problems, I'll be sure to ask. Everyone here seems to be very knowledgeable. Thanks, Brian |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by Greg_650 on 03/25/05 at 09:04:15 hellstorm wrote:
Permatex? Dude, that sucks. Was the head cover sealed with Permatex? This sounds really familiar somehow. |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by Greg_650 on 03/25/05 at 09:08:11 Also, it's funny but when I checked this topic earlier, I didn't see the picture of the open crankcase above. Maybe the server was down....so obviously, I see that my other question was rather redundant. |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by hellstorm on 03/25/05 at 10:07:50 Headcover wasn't sealed with Permatex, but the rightside engine cover was since its off and I think possibly the left side too. I will know better this weekend, I actually just got the bike last night. I will start the dismantling so i can yank the engine out and just take it from there. I'm almost tempted to just put the cam and rockers in and not crack open the case, but if i do do that and the oilpump is actually clogged, I'll have to do it all over again anyway. Wish me luck!!! Thanks, Brian |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by Greg_650 on 03/25/05 at 10:55:33 hellstorm wrote:
Why do you suspect the oil pump? Is or was oil present in the recesses under the head cover and around the cam shaft? |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by hellstorm on 03/25/05 at 11:41:27 Greg, The guy I bought it from rode it to a dealer about 20 miles away and they tore off the head cover and right side cover. They seemed to think the permatex clogged the oilpump, starving the topend of oil, which is why the cam and rockers were chewed up. Although the cylinder isn't scored, so I'm not really sure what happened. When he bought it it had 3719 miles, now it has 4232 on it, do the math. I'll do a little poking around before I crack it open. I just don't think there could have been that much permatex to clogg the oil pump. We'll see hopefully tomorrow i can yank the engine and start nosing around. Thanks, Brian |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by Greg_650 on 03/25/05 at 11:58:29 That was the purpose of my question? Could or did Permatex clog the oil pump...and I know that dealers are quick and willing to offer all kinds of shop labor ::) My question is more like, if there was oil in the top end recesses, was it really oil starved because of a clogged oil pump? If there was permatex on the side covers, then why did the previous owner open the cover and what did he do? Is there an inlet strainer on the engine oil pump? I don't know. |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by woodworker on 03/25/05 at 14:00:47 Affirmative, there is an inlet oil screen on the oil pump. |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by bobo383 on 03/26/05 at 06:30:32 hellstorm wrote:
Could be a couple things, even a new bike can have a defect. Fuel getting into the cylinder can leak down past the rings when the bike is off. Leaking fuel petc0ck diaphragm: Check by yanking the vacuum line from the carb to the petc0ck -- Should be dry with no sign of fuel Leaking / stuck float, needle valve, o-ring: This one can come and go -- will drive you nuts cause it happens one day then it's gone, and comes back again. Look for alot of fuel in the airbox by yanking the plug off the drain tube at the boottom of the bike. If there's alot, there's a problem with fuel control and there's probably fuel in the crankcase as well. Also, if you check the oil every time you ride you will know there's a problem if your bike "made oil" from the last time. My bike had both these problems. The rockers were all that were damaged to the point of needing replacement. There are scratches in the cam "bearing" seats in the head, but it polished up and works OK. I had the advantage of seeing this thing for a year as my neighbor's project before I bought it. |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by Greg_650 on 03/26/05 at 07:21:04 woodworker wrote:
So that means that only small particles could enter the oil pump, right? And I assume that the mesh on that screen is intended to stop any particles that would be big enough to "clog" the oil pump...and the rest are caught downstream in the oil filter before going through the different oil passages. And I assume that the dealer knows everything. Yeah, right. All I know is this is the first time someone in any of the forums (that I've visited) has been told he needed a new oil pump....hmmmm. |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by bobo383 on 03/26/05 at 07:44:05 To satisfy yourself about the oil pump, clean up the top of the head before re-assembling, and then look inside a rocker cover after running the bike for a few minutes. If oil's up there, you're fine. If not, then worry about a clog somewhere. I really doubt you need a new oil pump, but I believe that from experience with this kind of stuff. Dealers make money on service, so it should not surprise you they will make it sound like the world is ending if you don't fork over the cash. That, and most parts counter people and just plain stupid anymore. Good ones are hard to find. You can spot them by the gray hair (or gone hair). If it weren't for those dealers and green parts guys, I wouldn't get such good deals on used equipment. The savage is not pressure oiled like a small block Chevy, it's pretty much splash - move- splash. If there's oil at the top of the motor at all, the oil pump is fine. Permatex may clog the pickup screen and/or the oil filter, but it will go right through the positive displacement pump. The top end damage is likely from too little oil, gas in the oil, or overheating. |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by hellstorm on 03/26/05 at 15:26:34 Alrighty then, upon further investigation I found: There is oil in the top of the head where the cam sits and in the notorious oilplug thingy. The oil in the head showed no sign of permatex, although it was pretty black. The old oil filter showed no sign of permatex. Opened the airbox and took out airfilter, smelled very strongly of gas. Oil in head smelled faintly like gear lube from a ford rear-end. So I am going with the leaking fuel shut-off theory. I'm going to order a new one from RonAyers.com. I'll just throw the cam and rockers in and check the head for oil like you suggested. I am thinking of running some tranny fluid through it first to clean any gunk out of it. While I'm waiting for parts, gotta get that stupid airbox out of there. Going with the pod filter seems a better bet. I'll keep you all updated!! Thanks for the help!! Brian |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by klx650sm2002 on 03/27/05 at 01:36:26 I had to put a foam pod filter on KLX due to frame clearance problems. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by Kropatchek on 03/27/05 at 02:42:16 When you have the rightsidecover off check for presence of the oilpress restrictor. It sits on the left-upper side of the crankcase. If it is missing the oilpressure( supply) going to the head is not enough. Greetz Kropatchek ;D BTW Like your modified Triump logo. |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by Greg_650 on 03/27/05 at 06:23:00 Kropatchek wrote:
Ah, not only is that an oil restrictor as you mention, but it is also an oil jet/nozzle for lubing the clutch plates. Right behind it is a vertical oil passage (through a cylinder stud hole) that goes up to the top of the head cover. So as Kropachek says, if that is missing, there could have been an oil pressure loss to the tope end |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by Greg_650 on 03/27/05 at 06:27:06 hellstorm wrote:
When you put your new cam in, use some engine assembly grease on the plain bearings, lobes and the rocker arms. Good luck with the airbox removal. That will send you down a new discovery path for sure...don't forget that the ignition unit mounts ON the airbox ;D |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by bobo383 on 03/27/05 at 20:16:42 If you decide to replace the fuel valve, send the old one to me and I'll convert it to on/off/reserve for you. |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by hellstorm on 03/27/05 at 20:27:13 So if I send you my fuel shut-off valve you'll convert it for me? That would be great! Thats the best thing thats happened to me today. Why you say, because my car took a dive today and it's toast. It's been a hellauva day and now I have to get another car to get around, ahhhhh! Anyway e-mail me your address and I'll send it out. THANK YOU!!!!! Brian |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by bobo383 on 03/27/05 at 20:47:22 Your email address is hidden. email me at belindabobo@sbcglobal.netand I'll reply. This will be like overhaulin', except you know what's going on up front. Alot of folks have asked how to do the manual conversion so I'll take pics and post in the tech section. Sorry to hear about your car. What kind of car, and happened? |
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Title: Re: Newbie with Questions Post by hellstorm on 03/28/05 at 05:49:09 Sorry, my e-mail should be visible now, chaged my profile. The car was an 88' Subaru, very realiable until yesterday. Think I blew a valve stem seal or rings, smoking like a James Bond car. Now just have to get a new ride, unexpected, but thats life. Thanks, Brian |
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