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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Exhaust port /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1110637308 Message started by klx650sm2002 on 03/12/05 at 06:21:48 |
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Title: Exhaust port Post by klx650sm2002 on 03/12/05 at 06:21:48 There have been a lot of new members since the last time I asked this question so I'll ask it again, have any of You modded that horrible Savage exhaust port and with what results ? Thanks a lot, Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/12/05 at 07:00:14 Ah, but I haven't forgotten. It's on my "to-do" list ::) |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by woodworker on 03/12/05 at 10:05:55 klx650sm2002 wrote:
I've ground the "V" section down about a 1/4" in the exhaust port and beveled the outlet opening as much as possible so that the bevelled edge just meets with the inside diameter of the exhaust gasket. The following pic at this linkhttp://members.shaw.ca/kenerechook/exhaustport.htm shows the ground out "V" section but not the additional bevelling, which I did after the head had been reconditioned in the machine shop and neglected to take a pic at that time. You must be careful when removing the "V" section, you have only so much meat between the port and the valve side of the head, (MEASURE CAREFULLY!) and remove as much material as you deem safe. As for results: The final results will only be realized when I get the opportunity to break the new engine in properly(see "86 REBUILD" on page 3 of this forum for more info) and consequently dial in the carb (which must be done at full throttle for main jet sizing) |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/12/05 at 12:48:30 How much bigger is the opening than this stock picture? http://home.comcast.net/~gmdinusa/ExPort01web.jpg |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by woodworker on 03/12/05 at 14:22:44 Greg_650 wrote:
1.499" plus or minus .005" |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by PRH111 on 03/12/05 at 16:17:24 Opening that exhaust port exit will increase reversion based low rpm performance issues (even with our low rpm biased camshaft). How much difference in size is left between the size of the header tubing and the exhaust port expansion you did? (Then again actual performance loss and gains from your work would be hard to quantify since you changed multiple things at once). |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by klx650sm2002 on 03/13/05 at 01:42:19 Hey Woodworker, I am so pleased to hear that someone has finally done it and opened up that port, well done and thanks a lot. I would have been happy to open the circular part but I had no idea about the "V" section and am pleased You put a number on it.1/4" is more than I expected and should make a big difference. Sorry I missed Your link on feb 25 but have read it now. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by klx650sm2002 on 03/13/05 at 01:57:21 Hey Greg, This is good news for You too, that port being opened up to 1.5" is a perfect match for Your Raask pipe. The increase of a quarter of an inch is a big percentage. You have this to look foreward to. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by woodworker on 03/13/05 at 03:12:22 klx650sm2002 wrote:
That 1/4" removed from the "V" section is an estimate!As mentioned previously, be very careful as to how much you remove. It is difficult to measure the thickness of material left from the interior of the head to the top of that "V" section! |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by woodworker on 03/13/05 at 03:17:01 PRH111 wrote:
If reversion becomes a major issue and there is no way to correct it with header sizing, I plan to TIG weld and regrind the opening back to original size. |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by klx650sm2002 on 03/13/05 at 04:33:48 I don't think You'll have to weld anything, KLX is 39.6mm and drives from tickover. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/13/05 at 05:33:25 woodworker wrote:
How about this part? how much did you grind here? (image gone)http://home.comcast.net/~gmdinusa/ExPort02web.jpg |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by woodworker on 03/13/05 at 06:39:57 Greg_650 wrote:
Greg; If you have another look at my head (which is inverted from the picture of your head) you will see the "V" section with a flat spot on it about 1/2" wide after grinding. As previously mentioned, it is difficult to measure how much meat you have between the valve side of the head and the exhaust port side. Extra caution is required! I never did take a measurement of the dimension you are looking for. |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by lancer on 03/13/05 at 07:01:02 So, after your porting work, what kind of performance difference did you realize from it? Was this done by itself or did you do other upgrades at the same time? |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by woodworker on 03/13/05 at 07:04:21 lancer wrote:
Check above for more info and this link http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1109374157 |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/13/05 at 15:31:10 woodworker wrote:
The reason I asked is because of a conversation that I had with Clive sometime ago. According to the lubrication schematic that I have there appears to be an oil passage across the front of the head in that area. I don't know if it is just my interpretation of the schematic or if there is no issue about it in this area. Aside from that the only head work that I have done is to polish the intake. Did you remove the valves before grinding? |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by woodworker on 03/13/05 at 17:25:39 Greg_650 wrote:
As you can see in the pic of my head, the old valves were still in it when I did the filing (I actually only used a flat file to cut down the "V"and a round file to open up the opening). I later removed the valves and guides and then brought the head to a machine shop to have the valve seats ground and new guides, valves, and springs installed. What grit of sandpaper did you use to polish the intake? I came across an article somewhere (using a search engine) that said not to go any finer than 80 grit on the intake as further polishing makes the fuel cling to the surface. As for an oil passage in the area of the "V" across the exhaust port, I am thankful I was lucky enough not to find it! This is probably another reason to use utmost care when you decide how much you are going to file off. Let's hope that Suzuki has used the same mould to cast the heads of the LS650 since they began producing them in 1986! |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by klx650sm2002 on 03/14/05 at 01:31:31 Well Greg it looks like You can open up that circular part of the port to 1.5" without worry. But care and careful meaauring is needed for the V section. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by PRH111 on 03/16/05 at 22:05:44 I would personally avoid opening up just the edge of the exhaust port unless the rest of the exhaust port is opened as well otherwise you create a lower velocity higher pressure area right before the header (granted it will be a very very small difference in velocity). Having a "step" from the port to the header isn't bad because it reduces reversion (as I mentioned earlier). You could polish the exhaust port though. I'd debur the combustion chamber as well if I had the head off. I've never tried using a file, that must have been tedious. I prefer to use my die grinder for steel or iron and my dremel for aluminum. |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/17/05 at 05:26:27 Yep. You need a pressure drop. Not that I can quote any numbers, but I know that. Since the ID on my Raask is larger than stock, I can approach that size for the exhaust port. When I polished my intake, I used a Dremel tool and emory cloth. Mostly to just remove all the rough casting lines and really rough spots. I pulled the valves to give me better access, but since the engine was only 1 year old, I didn't have anything done to the guides or the seats. |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by klx650sm2002 on 06/04/05 at 06:07:36 Hope this is of use/interest to some of you out there,I can't do links. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 06/04/05 at 06:15:13 Yep, but once again this little mod will need to wait for next winter....again. ::) |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by klx650sm2002 on 06/04/05 at 06:22:23 This is a blast from the past, it allways seems to come back to the port. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/08/07 at 05:37:48 Well, we can't let this one fade away. The last thing I said was "next" winter....but I should have said, "next after next". I never lost my "to do list" ;D Got a grinder yesterday and have some carbide bits and polishing pads... Time to open that puppy up. Still there, Clive? |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Reelthing on 03/08/07 at 06:33:18 Greg_650 wrote:
Quite interesting subject - how much seems to be the question - there's a good '98 spare head in the garage just waiting for such experiments - want a practice subject? |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by thumperclone on 03/08/07 at 07:04:02 this guy has a different way of porting: mototuneusa.com the D port interesting ideas... |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by justin_o_guy on 03/08/07 at 07:09:22 Suzuki may not have engineered the finest exhaust port here, but I have a hard time believing they are goofy enough to run an oil passage thru the top of the port. Seems that might be a bt hard on the oil getting exhaust heat that close. Might cake the wall up. I think I saw somewhere the flat part inside the port is the recess for an exhaust valve spring. |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/08/07 at 07:51:08 justin_o_guy wrote:
Ya have to realize that this was a bunch of brainstorming months and months ago. Anyway, yes the flat is for the valve spring. Where I'm gonna grind is closer to the exhaust port itself because the ID in my Raask is larger than the stock header. Can't go all the way because ya need a pressure drop, but can be improved... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/ExPort01web.jpg |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/08/07 at 07:56:26 Reelthing wrote:
I already got one :P Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Reelthing on 03/08/07 at 08:36:43 oh well just have to find my round tuit one of these days - have a nib late 80's single wall header pipe and megaphone MAC to port match |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/08/07 at 10:46:18 Reelthing wrote:
If mine works (how's that for positive?), you can send me yours and I'll do it for you. I just got a couple carbide bits...it's about time to cut metal :P |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/08/07 at 12:39:30 So far so good. The valves are out of the head :P Oh, and I forget who asked, but I believe that the paint on the valve springs is supposed to indicate the top of the springs when installed. All 8 of them are that way. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/HeadValves_2516.jpg |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Kropatchek on 03/09/07 at 02:40:01 Greg_650 wrote:
Paintmarks are usualy indicating the strenght of the spring. The closer windings go on the head, check your SSM for proper explanation. And while you're at it : replace the valvestem seals. |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/09/07 at 04:37:51 Kropatchek wrote:
Oh well, I thought that it made sense since the paint marks were all up... |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by klx650sm2002 on 03/10/07 at 01:50:33 Yup still here Greg, pleased to hear you are going to start work on the ex po , remember measure twice cut once. Go well Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by LANCER on 03/10/07 at 04:32:03 Yea, there is nothing a satisfying as cutting for a while and then suddenly remember that you were supposed to check the spec's before starting. ;D Then you find out how really good you are when it comes to "seat of the pants flying" with the cutting tools. ;D So far, I am out to 1.492" on the outside edge of the port. |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/10/07 at 07:04:48 LANCER wrote:
Lancer and Clive, Well, I used to be pretty good at doing mold repair work so I hope that hasn't been lost yet ;D I've finished the cutting, but I didn't go quite that large this time. I looked close at the head and decided that I might want to maintain the angle that sort of funnels back to the valves on each side. My thinking was to ensure that that there was a pressure drop through the port while keeping an even flow around the circumference of the opening. I was also concerned that I might inadvertently cause unequal flow between the 2 valves (assuming they are equal in stock form). Therefore, I scribed a line around the opening and used the burr to angle the cut all the way around the port. Since the top and bottom of the port are different from the sides (just in the shape), I decided to only open it up to a maximum that would still maintain a "lip" all the way around. Using a telescoping gage, the stock opening was 34 mm or 1.340" (my earlier measure was a "guesstimate") , and the end result, was 36 mm or 1.417". Approximately, opened up 1 mm on a radius. I also started polishing the port, which is quite a challenge since the valve guides and seats are in place and I can't glass bead the chamber anyway. Since my rotary tools only extend a couple inches into the port there are unreachable areas, but the outlet is getting a nice mirror finish to it. Bottom line was that yesterday I spent 6 hours sitting on the "seat of my pants" with my fingers crossed. I'll post a picture later :P Lancer, did you have the valves reground or even lapp the valves before reassembly? I think that I may do the latter... |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by LANCER on 03/10/07 at 07:45:02 I have not lapped the valves yet. I think I will go ahead and have a nice 3 angle job done on it when I take the cylinder in for a shave. Clive worked out some numbers for me and suggested that I limit the shave to about 0.050" in order to leave room for the valve-to-piston clearance. |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/10/07 at 09:13:15 My seats look to be in pretty good shape (intake better than exhaust) with not too much carbon. I think that I'll just lapp 'em a bit and go with it. Isn't it amazing how a little cam chain issue can grow into a full rebuild? :P |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/10/07 at 21:00:07 There you go Clive. You've been wanting me to do it for a couple years, and I finally got around to it :P Opened the exhaust port up 2 MM to 36 MM and ground as much of the rough casting as I could reach...I didn't want to try grinding through the valve seats in the event I got careless :P After grinding I used polishing compound and felt wheels. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/HeadExhaustPort_2545.jpg Here's the head turned over. There isn't much more metal at the top of the port. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/HeadExhaustPort_2576.jpg Then I went back the intake port that I worked on a little bit 4 years ago. More polishing. See how rough the casting is up near the valve guides? That's the way the whole port used to look like. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/HeadIntakePort_2568.jpg And then because I still had a bunch of compound and felt, I decided to clean up the combustion chamber. No grinding, just polishing. A lot of it. I'll lap the valves and seats next... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/HeadChamber_2528.jpg PS - something about the way the photos get resized, makes the edges of the exhaust port look rough. They aren't....I sure do wish they'd let photos display 640 pixels wide... |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by LANCER on 03/10/07 at 22:23:35 This is mine so far ... 36.5-37mm ID http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6RKKt%3AxxrKUp7BHD7KPfrj%3DQofrj7t%3DzrRfDUX%3AeQaQxg%3Dr%3F87KR6xqpxQQQaxJQexJlGxv8uOc5xQQQ00eoJ0J0ooqpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXPGP%7CRup6lQQ%7C/of=50,590,442 Exhaust port still needs a little more work http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6RKKt%3AxxrKUp7BHD7KPfrj%3DQofrj7t%3DzrRfDUX%3AeQaQxg%3Dr%3F87KR6xqpxQQQaxJQexJlGxv8uOc5xQQQ00eoJ0J0o0qpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXPGG%7CRup6lQQ%7C/of=50,590,442 Intake http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6RKKt%3AxxrKUp7BHD7KPfrj%3DQofrj7t%3DzrRfDUX%3AeQaQxg%3Dr%3F87KR6xqpxQQQaxJQexJlGxv8uOc5xQQQ00eoJ0J0oaqpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXPGG%7CRup6lQQ%7C/of=50,590,442 Exhaust http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6RKKt%3AxxrKUp7BHD7Kofrj%3DQofrj7t%3DzrRfDUX%3AeQaQxg%3Dr%3F87KR6xqpxQQQaxJQexJlGxv8uOc5xQQQ00eoJ0J00QqpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXPGa%7CRup6lQQ%7C/of=50,590,442 Intake port http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6RKKt%3AxxrKUp7BHD7Kofrj%3DQofrj7t%3DzrRfDUX%3AeQaQxg%3Dr%3F87KR6xqpxQQQaxJQexJlGxv8uOc5xQQQ00eoJ0J000qpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXPGa%7CRup6lQQ%7C/of=50,590,442 Intake port closeup...note roughness in first half+ of port which aids in atomization & prevents fuel droplets from clinging to wall. http://render2.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6RKKt%3AxxrKUp7BHD7KPfrj%3DQofrj7t%3DzrRfDUX%3AeQaQxg%3Dr%3F87KR6xqpxQQQaxJQexJlGxv8uOc5xQQQ00eoJ0J00GqpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gXPG0%7CRup6lQQ%7C/of=50,590,442 This is a link that talks about the intake port, well port work in general. The techniques this guy has found that make POWER. http://floheadworks.com/Services/tooled_finish.htm http://floheadworks.com/images/tooled%20finish.jpg |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by klx650sm2002 on 03/11/07 at 03:46:27 Great to see you guys doing the port work and hope it works out for you. Go well. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by LANCER on 03/11/07 at 04:41:54 It's just aluminum, if sometlhing does not work I will just glue it back in. ;D |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/11/07 at 07:20:54 Okay, let's go over this....I see that you went a good bit further in some ways.... First, did you use an aluminum oxide stone? Then, you also went into the valve cavity where I was too worried about bumping my grinder on the valve seats. Hmmm. I might rethink, but then I also need more length on my rotary tools so that I can see where I am going. As for the exhaust, I notice that you radiused the lip of the exhaust. Was there any particular reason for that? Or were you just wanting to remove as much as you could? I am more worried about opening it greater than the total valve area. I may go back in here for another look. Need to measure the total valve area, I think. Then I may get some more stones and felt wheels. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/ExhaustPort_2576.jpg As for the polishing the intake...There are a couple rules of thought on that. - One is that roughness increases atomization, which is true but you reach a a point where there is a trade off. - If you think terms of in fluidics, roughness also puts frictional losses on the flow, and that drag will separate droplets. If you reduce the friction then the velocity will increase. For my money, I think it will be better to have the highest velocity at the beginning of the intake, which is the smaller diameter. Then as it the fuel charge gets closer to the valves and splits, the area also gets larger which causes a drop in velocity. Then in this rougher area, roughness might actually cause more of the turbulent effect that you want. Just think about water droplets on your car. When it's clean and waxed they run off. When it's dirty they don't. Roughness also gives them something to stick to. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/IntakePort_2568.jpg AND OF COURSE...we are talking about thumpers. This isn't an engine that has multiple pistons and therefore creates anything similar to a steady flow at either the intake or exhaust. In between suck and blow traffic comes to a stop :P |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by LANCER on 03/11/07 at 07:44:14 This dude Perry Kime has some pretty good stuff on his resume so I thought I would try to replicate his technique. We shall see if I screw it up or not...that is why the stock head is sitting patiently on the shelf. |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by klx650sm2002 on 03/11/07 at 08:44:08 Hey Lancer It would appear that you are going to take too much off the head, My figures were the amount to be taken off the barrel not the head,but this was only if the squish clearance is .050" to .060" The total amount you can take off the barrel + head is dependant on the figures you need from your cam manufacturer which I don't have. I hope this is usefull, I was concerned when you only mentioned skimming the head without taking the other figures into account. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/11/07 at 08:46:04 LANCER wrote:
Yeah, you've got back up. When I commit, my butt is on the line :P I used to have a resume...and I used to have to calculate pressure drops and friction losses in piping and valving. Gases and liquids have a few similarities The other guy's background is good, but like anything, I take it on advisement. I may tackle the exhaust port a bit more, but I'm happy with the intake. |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by LANCER on 03/11/07 at 11:10:20 klx650sm2002 wrote:
I was speaking of the amount to remove from the head, nothing from the head. |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by tbalam on 03/11/07 at 20:01:32 I think this is great. I know that on a v-6 or 8 you can expect some fairly large hp gaines. How much can you expect on a single cylinder? I am sure 2-5 hp, but would you really be able to feel the difference, especially with the gearing problems that we have been talking about? |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/11/07 at 21:22:16 LANCER wrote:
Well, I'm proud to say that I've spent another afternoon grinding in the exhaust ports. The left side exhaust valve is the worst one. Much longer distance from the valve to the outlet, but I can now stick my finger all the way through. I also managed to get over my worries about grinding through the valve seats...those ports are really sad when you get to looking close. The right valve clearly has better flow than the left one. Shorter distance and more direct. More tomorrow after I polish. |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/12/07 at 22:39:10 I've got the exhaust port opened up to where even Lancer and Clive will like it now :P But in the process I thought that I'd get some figures together concerning the Savage exhaust. Some of these are hard to believe but numbers don't lie :P First of all, calculating the area of both exhaust valve seats with an ID of .900" (and subtracting the area of the 2 valve stems), the maximum exhaust area for 2 stock exhaust valves is 1.100 in sq. Then figuring the area of the stock exhaust port with an ID of 1.340 ", we get a total outlet area of 1.409 in sq. Then figuring the area of my new exhaust port with an ID of 1.437", we get a total outlet area of 1.618 in sq. (Almost 15% larger...) Then in figuring the area of the Raask pipe with an ID of 1.500", the total area is 1.766 in sq. Now my exhaust port ID is only 1/16" less than the Rassk. I forgot to measure the stock header. Anyone got that ID number? I can almost poke my fingers through the exhaust port and out the valve seats ;D |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Reelthing on 03/12/07 at 23:19:19 Spare in the garage I'll go measure it - seems to me it funnels in a bit as double wall takes over - how far past the inlet you want a measure? By the way that sure is shinny cylinder head in the sig now |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by LANCER on 03/13/07 at 04:57:56 LANCER wrote:
Man, do I sound stupid ... "from the head, nothing from the head". :-X What I was trying to say before my nether brain got in the way was, I will be removing metal from the CYLINDER and not the head. ::) That took a lot of effort to finally get it out the right way. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by LANCER on 03/13/07 at 05:03:08 Are we having fun or what ?? ;D |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/13/07 at 05:46:12 LANCER wrote:
I'll have what he's having ;D |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/13/07 at 05:51:22 Reelthing wrote:
I used a telescoping gauge and just got the minimum diameter in the Raask. I guess that it begins about 3/8" from the flange....same diameter all the way through except for the packing and baffle. Here are all three ports together. The first was actually 1.340". http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/ExPort01web.jpg This is my first try... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/HeadExhaustPort_2545.jpg And this after I got my stuff together... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/HeadExhaustPort_2587.jpg |
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Title: Re: Exhaust port Post by Greg_650 on 03/13/07 at 05:54:39 Reelthing wrote:
I got some better polishing compound (the cheapy stuff from Harbor Freight was dried out) and had a second go at it. Much shinier now....:) |
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