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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1110163653 Message started by thehoghunter on 03/06/05 at 18:47:33 |
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Title: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by thehoghunter on 03/06/05 at 18:47:33 Clymer's states when adjusting Automatic Decompression Cable that "the actuator shaft should move out of the body 3-5 mm" What does that mean? Does that mean it should actually move to the left or right? What do they mean by 'body'? Seems to me, the cable pulls upward - the actuator shaft should be the part that goes into the engine which depresses the exhaust rocker arm to allow a slight pressure release. That's my understanding. But reading the Clymer book is just confusing on this. This is in Chapter 3 - page 48 (of the 1986 Savage). Anyway, what besides this can cause the bike not to crank? No spark - just the machine gun of the starter trying to work. Just charged battery - checked and it's at 12 volts (but still could be bad I guess). Help before I get the sledge hammer out. Oh, and don't tell me to check internals of the engine - I just put it back together and refuse to open it up again (2 more stripped out bolts - I now am starting to wonder about this "wonderful machine" - I should have just kept adding oil instead of trying to fix the oil leaks. The only part I appreciate is the starter - remove electrial connector - two bolts - slip backwards - lift out. Don't have to take any other parts off to work on the one part. Unlike any other part on the bike. If I didn't get this off my mind, I would be looking for the sledge hammer now! |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by bentwheel on 03/06/05 at 20:24:33 I know it sounds confusing, so I will decipher the Cylmer technobable. The body the manual refers to is the solenoid. This is probably best checked with the tank removed. First, make sure the engine is set to TDC on the compression stroke. Go to the the de-compression cable on the left side of the engine and follow the cable up and over to the right. The cable ends at the solenoid just under the frame back bone. Now go to the right side of the engine and on the centre of the solenoid will be a rubber cap. Pull it off and you will see a shaft in the centre. This is where you check the measurment. You have to squeeze the solenoid with your hand to make the shaft move outward and then you will make sense of this. With your right hand place your thumb on the solenoid near the centre where the shaft resides and with your index finger reach around the solenoid to the back plastic disc and squeeze together. This will force the shaft from the body and you can measure the distance travelled. Measure the distance from the brass boss protruding from the body (which secures the rubber cap) to the end of the shaft. The suggested measurment is 3mm to 5mm and I found you will get more lever travel if you adjust it to closer to 3mm. The adjustment is made back at the cable at the left side of the engine. There are two nuts on the cable. Loosen one then tighten the other to affect change. I hope this makes sense to you. Let me know how you made out or if you need further help. |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by Reelthing on 03/06/05 at 20:40:15 thehoghunter wrote:
I'd make real sure it's a good battery, not flooded to the point of fluid lock, and had some spark. Will the engine spin with the spark plug out? - if so is it blowing fluid out the hole? if you ground the side of the plug to the engine do you have a spark? |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by Ed_L. on 03/07/05 at 12:43:00 Clean the battery terminals and cable ends, sounds like a bit of corosion from winter storage. Luck |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by thehoghunter on 03/07/05 at 15:10:58 Sorry Ed - I don't do 'winter storage'! Thanks Bentwheel - don't know why Clymers didn't say solenoid in that part - would have made sense then. Thanks Reelthing - Tried another battery - same issue. That battery I know works since I put it back into my wife's Savage and it started up with no problem. I also found that my battery would not start her bike. So I'm charging another but will probably have to go get a new one. It has no spark but yet, I don't expect one since it doesn't seem to want to turn over at all. When I had the spark plug out looking for the spark, I never noticed the engine putting out any compression from the spark plug hole (wasn't looking for it mind you, just think I would have noticed it ). |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by gitarzan on 03/07/05 at 15:38:32 Tom, Answer me this, How did you do the U turn to get the air filter that way, and what's that filter thing-a-mabob on the front of the cylinder? It that just a piece of radiator hose, or what? http://predator.bikepics.com/pics/suzuki-savage-97-bikepics-296982.jpg |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by thehoghunter on 03/08/05 at 08:18:22 ;D Sorry, that's classified! If I tell, then I won't have the only Savage with one! Hint: Think plumbing supplies. The front thing-a-ma-bob is the filter for the engine - hose use to go to the airbox but since I'm not using the airbox (except to hold electronics), a filter is needed for it. See Greg_650's post (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1108586777;start=7#7) on pod filters. |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by Reelthing on 03/08/05 at 09:47:56 ??? so does the starter spin the engine when the sparkplug is out? |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by klx650sm2002 on 03/09/05 at 06:22:39 Yes the starter does spin the engine with the plug out, but put the cap on the plug and the plug to earth so as not to stress the ignition. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by thehoghunter on 03/09/05 at 07:57:40 Reelthing asked Quote:
Clive answered Quote:
So my question is, Clive, when were you in my garage working on my bike? And did you fix it? Reelthing was asking if the starter is spinning the engine with the plug out when I'm trying to get my bike to crank, not if that actually happens on any bike. ::) And Reelthing, I don't have an answer yet - still haven't had a chance to work on it again. |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by Reelthing on 03/09/05 at 10:00:24 Just wondering - good way to eliminate the compress release - if it does not spin the L out of it with the plug out.... that would lead me in a different direction for sure |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by Oklahoma_Mike on 03/09/05 at 12:15:27 Thank you bentwheel I also have a 1986 and that had me scraching my head Mike |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by thehoghunter on 03/10/05 at 08:49:03 Okay, tried to crank with known good battery - same problem. Removed starter - tried turning starter gear (internal to engine where starter motor slips into) with screwdriver. No luck. Finally gave in to find something I could get the valve timing inspection cover off with. Got it off. Attempt to turn the alternator rotor bolt and can't turn engine clockwise (starter motor not installed at this point) Can turn counter-clockwise. When I had the left crankcase cover off - it turned either way no problem. So what can be hanging it up? |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by thehoghunter on 03/10/05 at 09:14:41 UPDATE: Loosened the top left crankcase cover bolts - no change - can't turn clockwise. Removed the left crankcase cover bolts holding it on - did not remove the cover, just the bolts. And now I can turn the alternator rotor bolt clockwise/counterclockwise easily. Didn't touch the cover (as in attempt to loosen it up to pull it off) - just removed all the bolts holding it. Will try putting bolts back in to see what happens as I tighten the left crankcase cover down. First need to go get 17mm socket as it will be easier to do with it then using a wrench. Off to Sears! |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by bentwheel on 03/10/05 at 09:36:55 In your initial post you said you previously had the engine apart. Did you take apart the internals from the Left side engine cover? If so I'm thinking perhaps the clutch starter set or the starter idle gears are not set properly under pressure when the case is bolted down. |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by thehoghunter on 03/10/05 at 09:37:31 Good news - I already had a 17mm socket. Bad news - just hand tightening the L/crankcase cover down causes something to make it impossible to turn the alternator rotor bolt clockwise. |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by thehoghunter on 03/10/05 at 10:07:20 Found it (I think). I replaced the alternator assy back when I first started tearing the bike apart to make all the changes I wanted to this 'winter'. The replacement I have is off a 1986 Savage. It's got one piece (the pulse generator) to it that is about 1/16 inch taller than a 1996. It's hitting the gears causing them not to move at all. Note the '86 is curved on top - the '96 is flat on top. http://predator.bikepics.com/pics/suzuki-savage-97-bikepics-306704.jpg |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by thehoghunter on 03/10/05 at 10:50:36 >:( ??? >:( That wasn't it. I put my original in and I still can not turn the alternator rotor bolt clockwise once the L/crankcase cover is on and it's bolts hand tightened. Must have a slege hammer around here somewhere.... |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by Savage_Rob on 03/10/05 at 10:57:49 Ruh-roh... BFH treatment is good for stress but rarely achieves desired results. |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by thehoghunter on 03/10/05 at 11:40:06 ;D >:( ;D >:( Why am I happy and mad? Cause it's working now but I don't know what the puck changed!!!! I took it apart two more times and put it back together again - I was hoping to crank the heck out of it the first time and cause some kind of wear/scratch or something to show where it might be hanging. Could not find a thing. I put it back in the second time and walked away to have some lunch - didn't try cranking on the alternator rotor bolt. Come back and it turns. Tightened down all the crankcase bolts - it turns. No one else is here so it isn't like someone else found it. I HATE it when this happens. How do I know it won't start fouling up again. I went ahead and took it back apart - put it together and it still works. So I'm going to finish putting it all together, get on it and go riding tomorrow (of course, that's if everything else goes well I guess!). AAAAARRRRRRRRRUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!! >:( |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by thehoghunter on 03/10/05 at 16:05:06 And the luck continues. Putting the exhaust header pipe on, another broken bolt (okay a stud but it's still broke). Can't move it with vise grips so I drill it out. Knock in a easy-out and the easy-out snaps off as I try to turn out the rest of the stud. Anyone want to buy a used savage that use to ran really well, just leaked oil? Is it possible to drill out an easy-out? I always though those things were made so they wouldn't break (got to stop eating my Wheaties in the morning). |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by Nightrain on 03/10/05 at 16:18:42 You cant drill an easy out. Always use vise grips over an easy out, if you can get a grip on it. Youll need to heat it. Dont heat the stud but rather the part surrounding it. (heat = Expansion). I wont buy the bike but I'll take dibs on that seeger front end ;) good luck |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by Ed_L. on 03/10/05 at 16:53:34 I've had some success removing broken easy outs by getting a sharp punch and hammer and tapping on the busted easy out with the punch. Try to loosen it by tapping it and trying to unscrew it as you tap it. Use plenty of oil and some heat. They can be a pregnant dog to get out, >:( luck on it |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by lancer on 03/10/05 at 18:32:27 Ever hear the old song they used to sing on "HE-HAW"........." if it were'nt for bad luck I'd have no luck at all". Sorry man, but I just could not resist.. I will pray for you and your Savage, it has worked for me many times. |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by Max_Morley on 03/10/05 at 20:40:37 Do you have an arc or wire feed welder. If so, find a nut that will just fit over the broken off stub. Weld the nut to the stub. It should turn out easily when it has cooled. The nut gives you someting to turn and the heat usually breaks the bond between the threads. I read in a tech tip somehwere that paraffin or a candle held agains the warmed thread will be draw in a allow the part to free up. |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by thehoghunter on 03/11/05 at 05:15:26 Thanks for the advice (and prayers)! After posting I didn't bother to work on it - as I was ready to use the sledge on it. Don't have a welder but heard the same advice on another board about welding a nut to it. Will have to wait on this as I can't keep putting off other work to do this. Guess it will be a ornament in the garage for awhile. |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by Greg_650 on 03/11/05 at 10:29:39 thehoghunter wrote:
I just tuned into this topic. Are you saying that you had the left cover off and now the engine won't turn at all with the starter or by hand? If so, I may know what happened, cause it happened to me and in the process, I found the first "missing piece" of information in the Suzuki Service Manual :P |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by Greg_650 on 03/11/05 at 10:47:43 As I read further down, I see that you got it to turn over....before the broken stud, that is. But just to continue with the first problem. Was there any chance (since you don't know), that you put this washer on the wrong starter gear? I know that when I pulled my cover off, this washer stuck to the cover ('cause of the oil) and then fell on the floor so that I had no idea where it actually went. It isn't mentioned in the manual either, and as 50-50 chances go, I reinstalled it on the wrong gear shaft. Result: locked starter. http://home.comcast.net/~gmdinusa/Rotor02web.jpg |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by thehoghunter on 03/11/05 at 11:37:22 Greg - it's possible but I know it doesn't show in either Clymers or Suzuki's manuals - but it does show it on the microfiche (although it seems as if the gears are in the wrong place - either that or my gears are in the wrong place! :) ) I looked it up when I first took the cover off and it fell out afterwards - there is suppose to be two washers - one on each side of the gear. |
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Title: Re: Won't crank - what besides Auto Decompression? Post by Greg_650 on 03/11/05 at 11:43:23 thehoghunter wrote:
Yeah, but in my own little way of looking at it, I figured that one of the washers went on each gear. Wrong. And luckily, since the engine hadn't gotten hot, I was still able to save the cover gasket.....of course, since I had gotten to the point of pushing the starter button, there was a bunch of stuff to disassemble again. Actually I have had two issues with that washer. The second one is even more embarassing. Wanna hear about it? :P |
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