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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> New Member with a problem /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1108617698 Message started by Jazzdude on 02/16/05 at 21:21:38 |
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Title: New Member with a problem Post by Jazzdude on 02/16/05 at 21:21:38 Hi all... Great site here! I just found it a few days ago and have enjoying reading the posts. I've got a fuel problem that I wrote about over on Bert Heise's forum. Thanks to all that have responded and helped out. Unfortunately, the problem still exists... :( I've got an '88 Savage and whenever I start the bike [with the petc0ck in the ON position], it runs goods for about 30 seconds and then it slowly dies out. At the same time, fuel comes out of the left tube. If I give it more gas before it dies [ie. increase the RPMs], then the gas doesn't spill out. With the petc0ck in the PRI position, the bike starts and runs fine with no problems. These are the things I've done so far: 1. Overhauled the carb 2. Replaced the fuel line from the petc0ck to the carb 3. Checked the float and the float valve needle... 3 times 4. Checked the fuel petc0ck 5. Checked the vacuum line from the fuel valve to the carb 6. Checked the vacuum unit 7. Removed the vacuum unit from the fuel valve assembly and check the diaphragm 8. Drained the tank, removed the petc0ck and checked the built-in fuel filter 9. Started the bike with and without the gas cap A few days ago, I increased the idle speed a bit thinking that since whenever I gave it a bit more gas, the fuel didn't spill out. Naturally, it idled faster and the bike ran great. I rode for about 10 miles with no problem [with the petc0ck in the ON position]. At every stop sign and stop light, I was checking for any spill fuel. There wasn't any. I lowered the idle speed a touch because I found out that once I get up to speed in 1st gear, the idle speed was moving me along at 13 mph on a level road with no input from the throttle! :) I think that was a little too much idle! Does anyone have any other ideas that I could try? ??? Is it possible that the idle screw can loosen up over time and lower my idle speed? Also, could the main diaphragm in the carb have a small leak that might cause these symptoms? I checked it out thoroughly when I had it apart. Thanks! |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by gitarzan on 02/16/05 at 22:14:39 Quote:
That sounds about right. Remember this isn't an automatic transmission. Mine idles cold at 1000rpm and idles hot at 1200 rpm. That is normal idle speed. With gear 1 engaged, I roll along at 10-12 mph. |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Jazzdude on 02/16/05 at 22:33:09 gitarzan wrote:
Well... maybe a lower than normal idle speed's been my problem all along! I'll definitely check that out as soon as I can get hold of a portable tachometer. |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by slavy on 02/17/05 at 08:04:58 NO, at any idle speed the carb. is not supposed to overflow. You have some weird problem, that sounds like the float valve is not sealing perfectly /the only thing is the carb. is working fine in PRI wich doesn't make any sense/. The idle speed by spec. is supposed to be 1000-1200 RPM. |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Jazzdude on 02/17/05 at 23:13:30 slavy wrote:
That's what I thought about, also. But think of this scenario: the bike runs fine with the petc0ck on PRI. Gas is constantly flowing to the carb. The float is working correctly or the carb would be flooded all the time and most likely, gas would be spilling out of the carb through the vent tube. >/the only thing is the carb. is working fine in PRI wich doesn't make any sense/. < You got that right, Slavy! :) |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Greg_650 on 02/18/05 at 08:29:30 slavy wrote:
Exactly! In fact it sounds like 2 problems. If it overflows, you have a float problem. Either the float valve is screwed up or the float level is set way to high. Sitting on the sidestand, the left side is the low side, and it will overflow there first. As for the ON vs. PRI position of the petc0ck....is this the way you are doing it? http://home.comcast.net/~gmdinusa/Petc0ck02web.jpg |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Greg_650 on 02/18/05 at 08:38:52 BTW - I just found out that the "censor/ filters" for this site won't allow a picture of a petc0ck that is spelled correctly. I had to change the spelling for the JPEG too :P |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Jazzdude on 02/18/05 at 21:37:04 Greg_650 wrote:
Hi Greg, How the pic shows is how I've been running it before the problems started. Yes, the bike runs normal with the petc0ck in the PRI position but I don't feel comfortable leaving it there while riding. It just cures the symptoms, not the cause of why I have to run it in PRI. I've checked the floats during the carb overhaul by visually inspecting the floats for any corrosion, pinholes, or cracks, shaking the floats and listening for any gas sloshing inside, and floating the floats in a bowl of water to make sure they float level. When I disassembled the float and needle, I made sure I didn't bend the tang on the float assembly or anything else because the bike was running fine before. I've checked the float valve needle for any ridge(s) worn in the point by the seat, clean the needle seat during the cleaning process, and used an air compressor to dry the seat, and visually inspected the seat for any crud. Did I miss anything in the cleaning, inspection, and assembly process? Thanks for your help and also... thanks for the "oil plug leak" pics. That's my next project! :) --Rick |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Jazzdude on 02/18/05 at 22:19:56 While working on this problem, and since the bike's an '88 and probably still has the original hoses, I decided to replace the vacuum line from the petc0ck to the carb. I couldn't find any leaks when I checked it before so I pretty much ruled out the hose as the problem. So I took off the vacuum hose and decided to split both ends and look in the hose for anything unusual. I found fuel inside the hose at the petco0ck end which leads me to believe I've got a small leak in the vacuum unit on the petc0ck. Ron Ayers here I come! |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Jazzdude on 02/18/05 at 22:22:00 Greg_650 wrote:
Bizarre. Oh well... there are ways around the censors!! ;D |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by PerrydaSavage on 02/19/05 at 02:36:08 Intersting guys ... thought I read somewhere that there is a way to retrofit the Savage's vacuum operated petkock so that it operates like a standard unit with "Off", "On" & "Res" positions ... however, didn't read how this could be accomplished ... any ideas how this could be done? Any benefit to performing that mod? |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by sluggo on 02/19/05 at 04:31:36 PerrydaSavage wrote:
here's a link to bobo's post on the subject http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=Market;action=display;num=1107919261 |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/05 at 06:24:36 Jazzdude wrote:
The only thing that I could imagine would be to actually measure the float distance when the needle is seated. I usually just "eyeball" that and use a little common sense about the float level. Usually if the float bracket is horizontal, the float height is good. If you looked at it, and it seemed right, then it is probably good. Seems like your other checks are thorough enough too. |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/05 at 06:28:05 Jazzdude wrote:
Yep. Fuel in a vacuum hose is not correct. That does explain why the petc0ck is behaving funny, and would explain why the bike runs poorly in the ON position. You're getting raw fuel directly into the engine intake. But why the leaking out of the vent lines? |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by bobo383 on 02/19/05 at 06:29:35 I converted my petc0ck to manual after the vac diaghrpagm started leaking fuel into the intake through the vac line. Once you disassemble the petc0ck and figure out how it works, it's pretty straight forward. You'll be deleting the vac diaphragm and a couple springs (ON all the time at this point), and then plugging off one of the holes in the little white plastic valve cone that goes up the middle (to give you an "OFF"). Line up the plugged hole where it corresponds to the "PRI", and now that's off. "RES" and "ON" now work like a dirt bike/atv/old harley. If you want to send it to me, I'll do it for you, photo the deal, and put in on the tech section. Mine is already done so it would be hard to show you what to delete - it's in the trash already. |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by bobo383 on 02/19/05 at 06:54:10 But why the leaking out of the vent lines? (how do you pull a quote out in the blue text box?) I had several fuel issues with my 98 Savage. I bought it in 2004, after it sat for several years. It still had tags on it that expired in 99. So my story is not typical of one that's ridden regularly. I had the petc0ck problem, described in an earlier post. fixed that. Also had a float headache with my Savage. The float height was ok, the rubber float needle tip looked good, but the o-ring around the brass valve was in bad shape. "That's it", I thought. I replaced it with an o-ring from my Holley parts box, but the bike still flooded. I started increasing the float height (distance from the carb body gasket seat), and finally found a spot where it quit flooding with the float nearly 2" down from the gasket unassembled - right against the stop for the maximum float travel. Can't go any further than that without cutting the brass float. It worked great, no flooding, but it was not really something I was proud of. I was compressing the spring in the needle tip all the way for the valve to work. When I took the bike apart for painting and fixing the cap/plug oil leak, I bit the bullet and bought a new needle valve assembly from a New Zealand eBay member ($18 I think). When the new one arrived, i compared it to the old one. The spring in the spring-loaded needle was waaaaaay stronger in the new one. The new one works at the correct float height - about 1.1 inch measured with my dial caliper depth guage, just like the manual says it's supposed to. I can only figure the spring in my needle went weak (hard to believe, but possible), or a previous wrencher put the wrong assembly in. But I'm happy now. |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Greg_650 on 02/19/05 at 07:12:49 bobo383 wrote:
First of all, just click on "quote" to quote someone....you can also edit the text too as long as you leave the tags in place. So you still think this is a float problem too? So do I, but since he has checked the float, it has me wondering. Still, there is really only one reason for an overflowing carb. |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by bobo383 on 02/19/05 at 07:33:07 Greg_650 wrote:
Thanks for the quote tip! I'm with you - if the diaphragm is not leaking fuel to the intake, there's only one other way for the fuel to get in. I had checked my float, too, several times. I even took the float bowl off, turned on the gas, and worked the float to see where the fuel actually stopped coming out. I watched the float valve cut off fuel flow at about horizontal. Of course there were still drips, but I thought that was from all the parts being wet with fuel. When I played with the float level and it finally stopped flooding at an unreasonable float height, that got me thinking the spring was not strong enough anymore to adequately close off the flow against the vibration with the bike running. Replacing it made the problem go away. I would have lost money betting the Suzuki float valve was good. You know what that frustration is like, I know everybody's been there. I thought I was an educated guy. I'm a physicist by education and engineer by trade. I've been working on old cars for years. I would have lost money betting the Suzuki float valve was good. The more I learn, the more I don't know. |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Jazzdude on 02/19/05 at 08:08:21 bobo383 wrote:
Bobo, I thought the same thing you mentioned about the o-ring that goes around the brass valve. Mine was completely shot. I was really hoping that the o-ring was the cause of all the problems. It wasn't. :( Oh well... one less thing to worrry about. You also mentioned about a spring in the float needle valve assembly. I don't have one on my bike. I checked the online microfiche at ronayers.com [ http://www.ronayers.com/fiche/300_0039/carburetor/carburetor.cfm?man=su&groupid=7110&parent=7080 ] and it doesn't show a spring. Since my bike's an '88, maybe they've made an improvement. Can you explain where the spring is on your float needle valve assembly? Thanks! --"Still-trying-to-fix-my-bike" Jazzdude |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by slavy on 02/19/05 at 08:23:52 When You take a look at the Fuel valve- it consists of 2 aluminum parts and the diaphragm is inbetween. The smaller Al part is in the back and the vac. hose is attachet to it. The spring is between this Alum. part and the diaphragm. In Your case probably the diaphragm is stuck to the metal part and You are taking it out like one whole piece. If You pull it apart You will probably find the spring. |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Jazzdude on 02/19/05 at 16:39:59 Jazzdude wrote:
Bobo, I re-read your message and realized that you were talking about the spring on the needle valve, not a spring on the float needle valve. My mistake. Do you think that Suzuki [or Mikuni] changed the tension on the spring or, as you mentioned, someone put in the wrong assembly? |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Jazzdude on 02/27/05 at 22:51:11 slavy wrote:
I found it. Thanks for the info, Slavy. |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Jazzdude on 02/27/05 at 23:17:14 Greg_650 wrote:
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Jazzdude on 03/21/05 at 23:16:27 My problem's finally resolved. I ordered a new fuel valve assembly from ronayers.com and installed it a couple of days ago. The bike's running fine with no more problems of running rough and stalling out. Also, the "fuel-flow-out-of-the-vent-tube" problem has also been corrected. I still don't know why that happened. ??? Now... if it would stop raining enough to get a decent ride in... |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by sluggo on 03/21/05 at 23:37:15 glad things worked out for you. send the old one to bobo i believe he as adapted one to be the old fashioned way. off, run, reserve. using one that way cuts out the vaccum can lead to overflow if you float sticks. some claim it can fill the engine yet from my experience all it's ever done to me is flow on the ground. which i admit is not a great thing. if you send it he can then modify it and post pics for us to use. |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Greg_650 on 03/23/05 at 05:09:34 sluggo wrote:
Believe it or not, I had that happen with my old Westfalia VW camper. With the camper's gas tank physically located above the engine, VW used electronic fuel shut-off valves on each of the carbs to turn off the gas when the engine is off. Something malfunctioned in this system at close zero degrees in northern Vermont, and I ended up with the engine filled with gas all the way to the top of the dipstick....the entire crankcase, washed all the bearings clean, and locked the engine solid. |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by Jazzdude on 03/23/05 at 21:17:38 sluggo wrote:
Thanks for the idea, Sluggo. Unfortunately, I tossed in the trash and today was trash day. :( My next problem to tackle with the bike is the infamous oil leak plug. I thought I'd just keep an eye on it when it started. Now it's time to fix it! |
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Title: Re: New Member with a problem Post by bobo383 on 03/24/05 at 06:35:42 I must have de-activated the email feature, sorry about that. I'm catching up on the reading.... That needle valve drove me nuts till I just broke down & replaced it with a new one and the flooding problem disappeared. Of course, I had already converted the petc0ck to manual (on/off/reserve) by that time and eliminated the fuel in the vac hose. Please send an old petc0ck if you have one. |
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