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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Removed the white spacer, what else? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1098489179 Message started by Firefighter on 10/22/04 at 16:52:59 |
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Title: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/22/04 at 16:52:59 I got brave and tackled the job of removing the white spacer in the carb today. Not a hard job at all. Now I know how to get the tank off :D. The bike seems to backfire ALOT less now. Is there anything else to do. It seems to be running fine. I don't know what jet kit is in it. When the Supertrapp was put on, the shop supposedly put in a new jet kit "tuned" with the supertrapp. Not sure what that means. This was done before I bought the bike. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/23/04 at 02:51:04 The only way to know what jet kit was installed would be to remove each jet and compare them to the manual specs. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by bobo383 on 10/23/04 at 07:46:27 Play with it. I took out my white spacer and drilled out the idle mixture screw cover, and it ran a little rich even with the idle mixture screw all the way in. ALL the running backfires disappeared, but there was still a fart after I killed the motor. That was an improvement, as it sounded like a shotgun before removing the white spacer and afterwards just a fart. So I got brave (stupid?) - figuring since I still had the stock exhaust I'd play with it a little before replacing it. I removed the rear baffle with lots of drilling, cold chiseling, and cleaning it up with a die grinder. Exhaust is loud, and no more backfires when killing the motor, and the bike runs strong. Still a tiny bit rich, but strong. This is with the idle screw all the way in. If I back out the idle screw, it puts out black smoke. I really think putting in bigger jets and replacing the white spacer will be the way to go, to make the idle circuit work like it's supposed to, but playing with it is all the fun for me. Mine is an 86, and it still has the 145 stock main jet. One last backfire to tune out, though - If I turn the idle way down to a harley-like lope, where the motor is barely running, it will backfire when I let off the gas from 50 mph or so. As long as I have a sensible idle speed it will not do this. I probably will have to live with this one, I think. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by bobo383 on 10/23/04 at 08:53:04 Meant to say mine's 98, not an 86. Old age + ADD. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/23/04 at 09:10:25 ok, I am confused. What are you talking about "drilling out" ? Isn't the idle screw just a screw that you turn. It's right under the fuel shut off ? Or am I looking at the wrong thing ? When I turn it it bumps the idle up and down. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/23/04 at 09:44:46 Firefighter wrote:
That screw is the idle speed screw. The idle fuel mixture screw is on the right side...upper front with a brass plug (and a dab of white paint and a small hole). You drill out the plug to get to the screw. Easy to do. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by bobo383 on 10/23/04 at 10:38:26 I took some pictures, one of the idle speed screw you describe and another of the mixture screw I confused you with. I can't figure out hos to post a picture on this site, but if you'll email me I'll send you the pics. Your email address is hidden or I would have sent it to you already. Here's my address: belindabobo@sbcglobal.net -Michael Bobo (Mr. Belinda) |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/23/04 at 15:24:37 My email is: r0464@indygov.org Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/23/04 at 15:32:41 Ok, I am 99.9% sure I know where it is, and if I am correct, it has already been drilled out. There is a flat head brass screw inside. Now, how do I know what kind of adjustments to make ? I don't know what jet kit is in it. ??? That was done the same time the Supertrapp was put on. Since I took out the spacer, it backfires just a little bit now. I haven't been out on the road really with it since i did it though. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by bobo383 on 10/23/04 at 17:19:08 The idle mixture screw changes your idle and when you barely crack the throttle off idle. It may also help with your backfire condition. To figure out where you want the mixture screw, it's always good to know where you started from. That way you can always put it back like it was before. To figure out where the screw is now, take a little screwdriver and count the clockwise (IN) turns it takes to seat the misture screw -- Gently, don't force it, it's a delicate little needle on the end. Then turn your mixture screw right back out to where it was before you started, same # of turns counter clockwise, so it's exactly like it was before you started. Now you know no matter how messed up you think you may get, you can set it back like it was before you messed with it. Next, fire up the bike and warm it up by riding it around for a while. You must get the engine up to operating temp for the mixture adjustments to mean anything. Bring it home and WITH IT RUNNING, turn the idle mixture screw IN (clockwise) till you notice the idle slow down. It may not slow down for you without the white spacer, but if it does, you have found the leanest setting you want -- least fuel at idle. Then turn the idle screw OUT (counterclockwise) and you will probably notice the idle speed up and then if you keep going, the idle will get bad again. That's the richest setting you want -- most fuel at idle. You may also see black smoke from the tailpipe from the rich condition. Without the white spacer, and with presumably bigger jets, you'll probably see rich pretty quick. But, who knows till you try. If you can find the lean and rich endpoints, put the screw about in the middle of the two and see how that works for you -- starting, idling, killing the bike, backfiring, etc. When you find the mixture screw setting you like, kill the bike and count the number of turns to seat the screw, then back it back out again. Now you know where you want it today. When it gets really cold you might want to change it a bit. Someday you'll probably play with the idle speed screw and notice when you change the idle speed screw you should go back and change the mixture screw as well, especially with no spacer. Play with it and find the idle that works best for you. My bike's mixture screw was 1/2 turn out from the factory when I started playing with it, before removing the white spacer. My bike never leaned out at idle after I yanked out the white spacer, so my idle screw is now all the way in and the bike is happy. If I turn it out past a half turn now, the idle slows and black smoke comes from the pipe (too rich). Keep us posted, email if you want. Good luck with it! |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/23/04 at 18:16:01 Man thanks for the detailed instructions!! I really do appreciate it. I will give that a go this week. I can't tomorrow, I'm going to the Colts game ;D I am starting to learn alot about motorcycles, this is my first bike. I use to have a BMW M3, and I knew that thing inside and out, and did all kinds of mods to it, but when it comes to bikes, it is all new to me. Agian, I really do appreciate your help and the pictures you sent. Also, I wonder if mine has been messed with when the jet kit was installed since the brass plug has already been drilled out. ??? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by bobo383 on 10/23/04 at 19:12:47 Probably, and that's a good thing -- means you didn't have to drill it out and dress up the top of the screw from the drill boogering it up. Plugs over the mixture screw are relatively new -- old carbs had the mixture screw out in the open like the good Lord intended. EPA regulations mandated less emissions, and tamper-proof carburetors were a result. OK when new, but need to be adjusted after a few years. What year is your bike? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/23/04 at 20:13:43 Mine is a '98 with 3200 miles on it. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by rkutzner on 10/24/04 at 05:07:06 Guys, I really don't want to start something here as I am new to this forum and my 'Savage' S40 ;D. But I am NOT new to these carbs and engines and have two points of concern for you to consider: 1. If the idle mixture screw is all the way in then there is a problem with another circuit in your carb (or your pilot jet is too big but most folks and jet kits don't touch this). Your mixture screw should be out around 1 - 2 turns. 2. Taking out that white spacer without AT LEAST replacing it with a thinner washer is a HACK JOB. If you are willing to adjust your needle, get a Dynojet kit (is there any other out there?) and use the adjustments on that to do it right. Also, if adjusting a bike with a kit already installed, be aware that Dynojets main jet sizes do NOT correspond to Mikuni's sizes. I would guess that a 150 Mikuni is close to a 140 Dynojet. I figured this out when jetting my carb on my Z400 when I put in an intake cam and high compression piston. Anyways, it might be that the problem in (1) is related to the 'fix' in (2). I temporarily fixed the backfire problem by properly adjusting the idle mixture screw and touching nothing else. Ended up around 1.5 turns out (was 1/16th out from the factory, how bout THAT EPA crap...). I will rejet in the spring with a K&N/Supertrapp/Dynojet kit. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/24/04 at 05:52:01 rkutzner wrote:
All that I can say here is AMEN. The idle mixture screw is not a mystery with the exception that the EPA caused it to be hidden on newer bikes. Just turn it in clockwise until it sputters and back it out until it runs the best. Leave it there. Done. Just removing the spacer is a hack job. This has been dicussed in many topics that have disappeared on previous pages (maybe still searchable). Just removing the spacer without any knowledge about the taper in the jet needle or the corresponding needle jet...is essentially just richening the entire first 1/2 throttle range blindly. It also makes your closed throttle decel too rich. I found a plastic spacer about 1/2 thickness and others have used thinner washers or o-rings. Basically there is more to jetting then just the idle mixture or the needle, and as you say, there are other metering circuits in the carb too. Dynojet kits are the way to go, if wrenching and experimentation are not your personal choice. In my case, I use a wrench and buy individual jets, and to get rid of backfires with a stock exhaust it takes more that just removing a spacer and adjusting the idle...you have to consider the main jet too. As you say the Dynojet kits have their own jet size designations...it would take gage pins to determine the corresponding Mikuni sizes....and I just finsihed explaining the Mikuni sizes in another topic. If you have a stock exhaust, put a thinner spacer on the needle and get 150 main jet. You'll see a real change in backfires, plus gain a little more mid-range grunt when you are rolling through the twisties,...mid-range is where the main jet starts working anyway. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by bobo383 on 10/24/04 at 06:38:35 Instead of "hack job", we'd call it something else where I live -- I think we are talking the same language though. I agree that to leave it this way would not be right, but I'm in the first stage of playing with it and I do appreciate your inputs. I looked up the dynojet kit with a yahoo search, and I like the needle with e-clip -- looks like the older dirt bike carbs. Is there a cheaper source than the $65 on their website? I can buy alot of jets and teflon washers for that kind of money. Here it is Sunday and the shops are closed around here. Iwas leaning (no pun intended) toward putting the white spacer back in to make the idle circuit work like it's supposed to again, and picking up a 150 and 155 jet to experiment with. Since you speak highly of a half-thickness spacer, I'll make one up this afternoon and I will be halfway there. I have had some other headaches with this bike, and maybe you can help me shortcut to the right solutions. My 98 still had 1999 expiration tags on it, with faded paint from sitting outside when my neighbor bought it (cheap). It had 11,000 miles on it. He does not enjoy wrenching as much as I do, so I was helping him get it running again. He bought new rocker arms since the old ones looked like the bike had been run with gasoline in the oil. He bought a bunch of new parts that we put on, and he had the seat redone in leather (looks nice), but he finally got tired of working on it and bought a new Harley. So I picked up the Savage cheap. Do you guys know where I can get another fuel petcock vacuum diaphragm without having to buy a whole petcock? Mine is termorarily converted (you'd call it a hack job) to on/off only as the vac diphragm was leaking fuel into the carb and fililng up the crankcase with gasoline so I removed the vac line and plugged off the ports till I could get another vac diaphragm. I also plugged the "reserve" hole so I would hav an "Off" position. This works, but it's redneck/hack and does not match the printed "on"/"pri"/"res" markings. I'd rather it be right again because I'm always forgetting to turn on the fuel and get down the street with backfiring till I get the fuel turned on again. Any help you can give will be appreciated. Thanks again. -Michael |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/24/04 at 06:54:52 I'll be darned...Ron Ayers doesn't have a diaphragm listing for the pet_c_o_c_k or fuel_c_o_c_k ??? It does have a listing for the whole assembly though. Fuel C_o_c_k (http://www.ronayers.com/fiche/300_0271/fuel_thingy/fuel_thingy.cfm) |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by bobo383 on 10/24/04 at 07:01:07 Bike Bandit is the same way. >:( |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/24/04 at 07:01:24 bobo383 wrote:
Go to the Topic about Jardine and Mac mufflers....read my description of the Mikuni main jets. Then after you replace the spacer, go get a handful of jets from from the dealer. If you can turn a wrench and afford $4 per jet, you can tune it pretty well for pretty cheap, too. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by rkutzner on 10/24/04 at 11:43:52 Once I go to a K&N and Supertrapp, do you think the Dynojet kit is unavoidable due to lack of tuning in the needle area with the stock needle? Or is a 'half washer' going to run good enough if the idle mixture and mains are properly chosen? I was thinking K&N and Supertrapp in the spring....... 8) Also, on the main jets, are they the short ones with the flat blade in the top or the tall hex ones. My local shop had both and wasn't sure which ones I needed without opening it up first. Anyways, glad you all are open minded and thick skinned...I'm starting to enjoy it here ;D ;D ;D! |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/24/04 at 15:29:50 Ok, now I am confused again. I have read over and over on the internet about removing the white spacer completely and adjusting the idle mixture and everything being fine. So am I supposed to put in a half spacer or what? IF so, where do I get half spacer? I don't know what to do now. I have a Supertrapp on it, and don't know about what jets. This was done before I got the bike. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by bobo383 on 10/24/04 at 16:20:09 Are you happy with the way your bike runs now? If not what's it doing that bothers you? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/24/04 at 18:16:18 The only problem I have is the backfiring. Other than that, it seems to be fine. I have noticed a few times though, after riding for a little while and when I come to a stop, it has died on me. And I know I had the clutch in. So I know it wasn't driver error. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/25/04 at 03:08:34 Firefighter wrote:
How many disks does your SuperTrapp have installed? BTW - the main jet uses a flat blade screw driver. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/25/04 at 07:23:09 I think it has 8. I don't know where the jets are even at. I know where the fuel mixture screw it :D |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/25/04 at 07:36:44 Firefighter wrote:
Since you siad it backfired, I wondered. Does it have an end cap on the disks too? Quote:
That there main jet be right cheer ;D http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/215/215131/folders/156326/1283342MainJet01web.jpg |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/25/04 at 10:15:19 Yes it does have an end cap I believe. I am sorry I don't know for sure, but this is my first bike. :-[ But at the end of the exhaust there is a cover with some allen screws in it. Should I just put the white spacer back in and just adjust the fuel mixture? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/25/04 at 11:12:39 Firefighter wrote:
Before you go to the trouble, go to a hardware store and rummage around. Look in the plumbing section even. Take the spacer with you and find a replacement about the same diameter but 1/2 the thickness. You can find something for about 25 cents. Then put that in. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/25/04 at 17:37:15 ok, I'll look for a 1/2 spacer. I got to take the bike out for a liitle bit today, it seems to be running rich, and is backfiring just as much as before. ??? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/26/04 at 03:11:47 Yep. While your out looking for a spacer, go by ANY bike shop and get 152 main jet for a BS40 Mikuni. Even Harley uses Mikuni carbs (go figure, right?). Then install the spacer, the jet, and adjust your idle mixture to the fastet, smoothest idle. You should be a lot happier. I can't wait to find out what size jet you currently have. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Susan on 10/26/04 at 08:24:47 bobo383 wrote:
See this topic for details: How to Post Pics/Links (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1096641323) |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/26/04 at 11:08:24 When I get this jet kit, how do I go about changing the jet ? I know I have to take the tank off to put the spacer back on, do I have to disassemble the carb any to change the jet? Also, I don't remember exactly, but does the white spacer just sit on top of that rod, or was something on top of it ? Thanks for the help. I am going to try to do this tonight. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/26/04 at 11:17:39 I think that you need to get a manual, but without one, you can still go to Ron Ayers and check the microfiche files for a breakdown. The spacer goes on top of the clip, and if you'll notice the picture above, the main jet is hanging there with the carb installed on the bike. It doesn't get simpler than that :P |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/26/04 at 11:40:30 So the spacer just sits down right on top right? I have a diagram of the carb. I just want to make sure. I can open the carb and drop the spacer down on the pin without taking anything off correct ? The main jet can be done from underneath correct ? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/26/04 at 11:56:00 I just got off the phone with the Harley shop here in town and they said there isn't a 152 Main jet, that it's a 152.5 or 155. Is that right? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 10/26/04 at 12:30:13 Quote:
This is getting to be a fun question but I believe the answer is yes. I think Greg was referring to the 152.5 in the above post. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/27/04 at 03:49:56 Firefighter wrote:
Didn't you remove the spacer? Quote:
Yes. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/27/04 at 03:52:26 Firefighter wrote:
Yes, as Savage_Rob said...I meant to say 152.5. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/27/04 at 06:08:17 Yes, I removed the spacer, but I didn't really pay alot of attention to how it was on there. :-[ I am going to look for a 1/2 spacer today, and get the 152.5 jet. I hope to put those on later today. It's rainy so I probably won't be able to ride. A good day to work on her! ;) I will see if I can find a manual today too. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/27/04 at 10:55:14 Firefighter wrote:
Well, at least you admitted that. Most won't. That is one reason to always use a manual...if you can't remember what you did, but you followed the book, then you'll always know how to do it again. Quote:
Clymer at Amazon, Barnes & Nobles, WalMart, from what I understand. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/27/04 at 11:11:39 Well, I got the new 152.5 jet from the Harley shop this morning, and I got it installed. (with no manual) :) The old jet was a 144. The only thing I could find for a 1/2 spacer, or close to it, was a rubber O-ring. Is that OK to use? Thanks for the help!! Tim |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/27/04 at 11:18:59 Greg_650 wrote:
I will see if I can find a manual at Walmart. By chance though, does the spacer just sit down on top of the needle, meaning I can take the top of the carb off and remove the spring, then just set the spacer down on there and close it back up? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/27/04 at 11:23:54 Firefighter wrote:
Wait! Savage_Rob, help! Is a 144 a Dynojet size? Please look real close and make sure that's not a 145 Mikuni jet Quote:
Is it kinda hard rubber? As long as it is gasoline resistant that should be fine. It is after all just a stop. Put it in a little gas to check. You wouldn't want it to swell up and become 2 times the size. That would be a step backward :P |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/27/04 at 11:28:50 Firefighter wrote:
You still have to take out the spring, diaphragm, remove the 2 screws, jet needle plate and the needle. No short cuts. Take one last quick look for a small washer instead of that o-ring, just in case. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 10/27/04 at 11:42:47 I stopped by my local dealer yesterday to get some jets and they told me they only stock Keihin - not Mikuni but they could order them. I just ordered them myself. When I get 'em I'll play some more. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/27/04 at 11:53:32 Why Keihin and not Mikuni? Take up too much floor space ??? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/27/04 at 11:55:16 Is that good or bad about the older jet being a 144 ? I already put in the 152.5. I can't find a washer. I will check the o-ring with gas. No luck at Walmart for a manual. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/27/04 at 12:04:23 Firefighter wrote:
No, no, no...I wanted to check with Rob because that 144 sounds like a Dynojet number, not Mikuni. The jet you removed should have said 145. Go ahead with the 152.5 |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/27/04 at 12:32:08 WHEW !! I'm so glad you said that!! ;D I didn't want to have to take it apart again. OK, I am really sorry to keep asking, but with this spacer... I let it soak in fuel, and it seems to be fine. Now, I am looking at the diagram of the carb from Ronayers.com , and when looking at the parts, I want to make sure I am putting this spacer back in the right place. I took off top and the spring, when looking into the carb, I thought the old white spacer was sitting right on top of #3 ?? Am i remembering wrong? Or does it go UNDER #3 and then #3 is screwed down on top of it? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 10/27/04 at 12:40:27 Ack! Sorry, missed that. Yes, the 144 is a Dynojet size. My kit had everything from 138 to 146 in increments of 2. I also noted that the head on the Dynojet main is smaller that that of the Mikuni 145 I took out. The stock Mikuni 145 I removed looks like photos of the large round Mikuni mains. I hope so because that's what I ordered. The Dynojet main looks more like the photos I've seen of the Mikuni small round mains. Quote:
It looks to me like part #6 is the white spacer. They just call it a ring. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/27/04 at 12:49:53 OH, and one last question, do I need to move the lock washer #7 on the diagram, up or down or just leave it where it is? I am gonna run to another hardware store and see if I can find another washer instead of the rubber one. Be right back ! :P |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/27/04 at 12:53:14 Firefighter wrote:
Does your jet needle have different slots in it? Or is there just one? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/27/04 at 13:24:03 It has 6 slots, and with the white spacer in, it is sitting in the middle, on the 3rd one down. I can't find any single washers that will work. I think I will just use the rubber one. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 10/27/04 at 13:29:31 Ahhhh, he DOES have a DJ kit added then. The slotted needle is not stock. The DJ instructions say to put it in the 4th slot down. I have mine in the 4th slot with the spacer still installed and it winds up being about the same as the stock needle with a spacer half the thickness of the original. The DJ instructions did not say to include or discard it so I held them up side by side before deciding to go ahead and use the spacer WITH the DJ needle. I have not decided whether to keep this arrangement or not. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/27/04 at 13:34:40 Wait, ok I looked at the needle again, it is on the 4th slot !! So I probably didn't need to take the original spacer out ??? Should I just put it back in, and see how it runs with the new main jet, and adjusting the idle mixture screw ? Of course, I messed up my stock spacer, trying to make a 1/2 one out of it. I did order a new one yesterday, just in case I would need it... I guess I will. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 10/27/04 at 13:53:20 Hang on and see what Greg and anyone else thinks because I am just experimenting with mine. I will say that the size of your spacer (or even its existence) is probably not much of a problem because you simply need to move the clip on your needle to accomplish the same adjustment. That's really the only cool thing about the Dynojet kit - the adjustable needle. The stock needle is not adjustable. That's why folks play with spacer thickness or removal. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/27/04 at 13:57:16 Are you saying by moving the clip up or down, that does the same thing as the spacer? IF so, where would you suggest I start with at. I know with it on the 4th one and no spacer, it seemed to be running really rich. I pulled my air filter out today, and it smelled really really strong of gas. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/27/04 at 14:16:05 This is so funny, I just got off the phone with 2 different bike shops. One is the one who put the dynojet kit on my bike, and he said to leave the spacer in, and don't mess with the jet. Just adjust the air/fuel mixture. The other shop, said since I have the dynojet kit, leave out the spacer and adjust the needle up o notch and see how it runs, and adjust the air/fuel. ??? ??? ??? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 10/27/04 at 14:30:30 They're going to be similar except that your spacer is smaller now, so you're probably better off with the second option of leaving it out and moving the clip up a notch. You may even need to go up two notches. I'd try one first and see if it's still too rich. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/27/04 at 15:01:27 I left it out and moved it up one notch. I just ran it around the block, but I have to stop working on it for now. I have to pick up the kids. Hopefully it won't be raining tomorrow and I can run it for a little bit and see how it's running and adjust the air/fuel mixture too. I really do appreciate all the help guys!!!! I'm learning ;D |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/27/04 at 15:28:59 Wifey went to ket the kids, so I had time to run around a little. The air/fuel mixture screw was at 4 1/4 turns out ! Wow! No wonder it was running rich! I adjusted to 3/4 of a turn out. I left out the white spacer, and moved the clip on the jet needle up to the 3rd position. We'll see how that goes. It took awhile for the bike to start up after doing the work to the bike. Had me worried for a little bit. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/28/04 at 02:20:29 Wow. A lot went on after I left yesterday..... So you do have a DJ kit. I wondered when you said the main jet was a 144..... Okay, let's backup. We started all this because you bought a bike with a Trapp and you have backfiring. That is why we got sidetracked on changing jets (it's good that the previous owner did a good job). I'm sorry if I caused you to run all over the place getting parts :-[ Next time I'll suggest exploratory surgery first.... Now, we have got to get rid of the backfires and you don't have to buy anything.... So you have a Trapp with 8 disks, a DJ kit and backfires.... How often does it backfire? When? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/28/04 at 02:53:31 I just found an old picture of the jets....this is a stock jet needle and shows the spacer that I used (you don't need). The spring pushes against the clip and the spacer merely changes the upward position. You have slots and you can adjust that distance. Moving YOUR clip to a lower slot makes it richer. Moving it up a slot makes it leaner. You have backfires and need to be richer. Where did you start? Do you remember? http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/215/215131/folders/156326/1287314JetsEtc01web.jpg |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/28/04 at 06:03:54 It backfires when letting off the accelerator, switching gears, and when you shut the bike off. I have the DJ kit, I put in a 152.5 main jet yesterday, with no spacer and moved the clip up to the 3rd position and changed the air/fuel mixture to 3/4 of a turn out, it was at 4 1/2 turns out. The little riding I did after all this, the bike seemed to run better, but still backfiring when letting off the gas and switching gears, and when turning off the bike. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/28/04 at 06:48:55 Okay first....to the 3/4 turn on the idle mixture.....with bike hot and idling, turn the screw on the right side to the fastest smooth idle speed. It isn't the number of turns...but the fastest smoothest idle that matters. Mine is about 2 turns out, but with different pipes and mods, everyone is a little different. Now if the bike is idling too fast (seems to you), then lower the idle speed with the idle speed screw on the left side. Since you don't have a tach, just lower it to just above a loping speed where letting out the clutch and accelerating is smooth without stalling or revving. How is it so far? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/28/04 at 15:29:28 I went out just a little bit ago and the bike started right up. It died a few times when I put it into 1st gear, so I let it warm up a little longer, and it seemed to be fine. Is that normal for it to die, if it hasn't warmed up long enough? I rode it for a few mins (that's all the time I have for now) and came back and adjusted the idle mixture to almost 2 turns out. The idle seems to be real good. Still backfiring.. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 10/28/04 at 19:29:52 I always start mine with the choke halfway out and wait about 20-30 seconds until I hear her start to gag. Then I give her a slight throttle while pushing the choke in. After that I usually let her idle for another minute or two just to circulate oil before riding. Well, today's the first day I've had a chance to actually ride for more than a few minutes since adding the MAC muffler and rejetting. She backfired worse than before and when going from higher throttle to nothing (when coming to a stop) she died twice. I was wondering if she might. Just with higher throttle and then sharp drop off, she kinda choked. I'm sure it's a result of leaving the spacer in after adding the DJ kit. I thought it might be too lean - especially with the major difference in airflow with the MAC muffler and K&N air filter done at the same time. On Saturday I'll be removing the spacer and leaving the needle setting where it is at the 4th notch down. That and changing to either a 155 or 157.5 Mikuni main should fix it right up, I think. The Mikuni jets should arrive within a few days and that part won't require tank removal. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/29/04 at 03:14:27 Okay....the first thing that I notice (not rocket science) is that both you guys have DJ kits. Firefighter has one installed and didn't know it, and Rob has a partial kit installed. And both of you have backfires. What's up? It's cool that you both have adjustable needles cause that can probably eliminate the spacer all together.... Just remember, the higher the clip on the needle the leaner the mixture, and vice versa....we gotta try to talk about clip positions from the same end too to avoid confusion. Shall we refer to the slot numbers as "from the top"? Both of our bikes have aftermarket pipes installed and neither one backfires. So what's the difference and the cure? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/29/04 at 03:29:11 Firefighter wrote:
No it isn't normal. I gotta ask...Are you real new to riding? Is it dying because of rider error when you start out? As Rob says, 1/2 choke is helpful, but the weather is also warm right now too and it shouldn't need much choke. Are you using the clutch and gas correctly to start, or is there a problem with the bike? Is the idle speed too low? Quote:
Okay, you adjusted it after you got back, not before. 2 turns out should be better than the 3/4 that it was. Next time, take it for a ride before you make any adjustments to find out what change 2 turns made. Quote:
Let's define "backfire". Is it a "pop, pop, pop" or a 'boom'? And when does it "pop", or "boom'" while you are riding? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/29/04 at 07:32:44 I prefer a slightly rich idle mix, it gives a more consistant tickover from cold. Keihin needles have 7 slots, mine is on #5. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/29/04 at 07:53:59 Keihin set as above gives wheelspin in second in the wet. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/29/04 at 08:45:27 Greg_650 wrote:
I am a new rider, but it wasn't driver error. I think it just had to warm up a little more. I haven't ran it yet today, but I am getting ready to. I'll see how it goes from there. It is a "pop, pop, pop" and then when you shut the bike off, it gives one last "pop". |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/29/04 at 08:48:09 Greg_650 wrote:
Ok, referring from the top, I now have my needle set on "3". It was on "4" and it seemed too rich, BUT, I didn't adjust the fuel mixture screw any, but it was set really lean. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/29/04 at 08:58:14 Firefighter wrote:
Are the slots about the same distance apart as the spacer? Does it look anything like the distance on the needle in the photo above? I bet that you are really sick of removing the tank too? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/29/04 at 09:00:33 I would say the slots are closer than the distance of the spacer. I haven't removed the tank anymore since I moved it to the 3rd position. I am gonn go right now and run it for a few and get it good and warm and see how it goes. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/29/04 at 09:01:38 Firefighter wrote:
I had to ask.... So, the "pop" comes between shifts, and it sort of "pops" when you decel? With a "pop" at shut off? You aren't really too far off then. Try the idle mixture again. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/29/04 at 09:35:49 Just got back from a ride. It was backfiring quite a bit. I adjusted the air/fuel mixture back to 1 turn out. It was at 2. I'll go for a ride in a little bit and see.. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/29/04 at 09:36:27 Greg_650 wrote:
Yes, exactly !!!! ;) |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 10/29/04 at 09:42:30 I have the DJ kit installed and the instructions said to set the clip in the 4th notch but made no mention of whether to include the original spacer or not, so I did a side-by-side comparison of the two needles. That seemed like a rather large difference from the stock needle with the spacer, so I decided to try the DJ needle (set at the 4th notch, as indicated) with the spacer. That appeared to be somewhere between stock-with-spacer and stock-without-spacer, so I figured I'd give it a shot. Now that I've tried it, I am sure it's still too lean on throttle release. Tomorrow I will remove the spacer and run it with the DJ needle set at the 4th notch. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/29/04 at 09:45:25 It seemed too rich for me at the 4th slot with no spacer. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/29/04 at 10:01:25 Firefighter wrote:
So it is a "pop" and not a "boom". Let's call it a "pop" instead of a backfire then. They are different lean conditions and sometimes can mean a leak. Have you checked your muffler clamp and the header clamp at the cylinder? Do you have any black stuff on the oil level sight glass? That can mean a muffler clamp leak. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/29/04 at 10:07:08 Savage_Rob wrote:
Okay...Should we assume that the DJ kit comes with everything you need? I suspect that if they include a needle that it is intended to be a replacement for the stock setup. So, if they don't mention a spacer, then maybe it shouldn't be in there either. Does Dynojet have a tech support site? I wonder if the needle taper is different too...like in the rate of taper, not diameter ??? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 10/29/04 at 10:15:52 Yeah, I'm going to do another side-by-side and maybe even take a photo. You can't assume the kit is complete. I know for sure the spring was not included in it. The instruction sheet was somewhat odd in the way it represented the parts. There were basic drawings of each part in the middle, with lines pointing to the stock parts from the one side and more lines pointing to the DJ parts from the other side. In some cases, lines from both sides pointed to the same part (such as the needle and main jet). There were not separate depictions duplicated parts. In the case of the needle, you know you only use one and choose the new one. In the case of the spring, you know you need it and the only one available is the stock one because there was not one included in the kit. In the case of the spacer, well.... it's kind of up for grabs. That's why I did the side-by-side. I don't recall a difference in taper but it's entirely possible. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/29/04 at 10:48:57 I don't know anything about the kit, mine was installed by the dealer before I got the bike. I just got back from another ride, still backfiring. I don't think it's ever gonna go away ;) |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 10/29/04 at 11:08:41 Quote:
So the dealer did yours with the needle set at the 4th notch and with the white spacer installed too. Is that correct? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/29/04 at 11:23:37 Savage_Rob wrote:
Yes, that is correct. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/29/04 at 11:36:10 I just checked the clamps at the muffler and the header bolts. The header bolts were loose, and the muffler clamps were just a tiny loose. I'm off for a ride. ;D |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 10/29/04 at 12:26:54 That means I installed the kit the same as your dealer did.... now as to whether that's the correct way, I'm not yet convinced. But I'll play with it until it's right. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/29/04 at 13:12:38 Just got back... It still pops on decel and shutting off. I'm not too sure what else to do. I figured out why it was dying on me the other day when I was putting it into 1st gear.... I still had the kickstand down, and I guess it won't let you into gear with it down :-[ (correct?) I had no idea. Live and learn. ;D |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 10/29/04 at 13:28:44 Yeah, that's one of the interlocks. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/30/04 at 04:03:24 Firefighter wrote:
Ha, ha. I asked you about rider error. Ha. You know, it should be mandatory for all bikes to be sold with the original owners manual. I think that people keep them as a souvenir when they sell the bike, but that would have helped you to know about the interlocks. The problem with trouble shooting via the internet is a lack of the senses. I can't hear your "pops" and compare them to those that I've actually heard. When we bought our bikes new, at first we joked about the backfires which on a stock bike can be pretty substantial. They are a "boom" sometimes, and not a little "pop". However, after a while they became annoying to me and I decided to fix it. When this started, you called them a backfire, so I immediately assumed (what else can you do on the WWW?) that your bike was stock inside the carb. Well, we do know what "assume" means don't we? And that is what happened... Anyway, the pops are minor and quite common but can still be tuned out a bit better. The way to go about it is to make sure that you have no air leaks and to make it a bit richer. You siad you turned the screw in to 1 turn? Why? Does it run better that way? |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/30/04 at 07:10:54 Greg_650 wrote:
I knew you were going to call me out on the "driver error" ;D ;D The guy says he has the manual, I'm just waiting for him to get it to me. I turned it in 1 turn, because it seemed to idle a little better. Heck, I don't know anymore. Maybe I will move the spacer back down to the 4th spot and see what happens. I'm at a loss. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 10/30/04 at 15:17:06 Okay, here's my update... First, the DJ needle is ever so slightly longer than the stock needle but the added length is on the top end so it makes no difference. The tapers appear identical. Second, I misread the DJ instructions. They DO say to reuse all stock washers and spacers. They also say to set the clip at the 4th notch down. This is the effective equivalent to using a stock needle and shaving about 1/3 of the white spacer off. With this arrangement, I had quite a few backfires (on just about every throttle release and on shutdown). It was pretty much like stock (except that I have the MAC muffler installed now). Third, I changed my clip to the 5th notch down and kept the white spacer in and she seems to be running pretty well. I have the occasional backfire/pop on throttle release when shifting but never the final fart on shutdown. I have no visible smoke and no smell of gas, so I'm feeling okay about it so far. I think she's pretty close to the way I want her with my current parts. She still has the DJ 146 main jet installed (the largest in the kit) - at least until I get my larger Mikuni mains delivered. I have a 152.5, 155, 157.5 and 160 ordered. I'll play with those and see what works best. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Firefighter on 10/30/04 at 19:36:18 I haven't tried miny any further down than the 4th notch. I just got my new OEM spacer today in the mail, so maybe I will try the 5th notch with it in and see how it runs. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 10/31/04 at 02:22:52 Savage_Rob wrote:
This sounds like progress. No black smoke. Good. Did you readjust the idle mixture? Quote:
Firefighter had a 144 DJ main installed in his. So a 146 is the biggest DJ main? I wonder if a 155 is bigger than that. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 11/01/04 at 07:34:37 I never had any black smoke... just backfiring. I don't know if DJ makes a larger jet but the 146 was the largest in the kit. I believe the 155 will be larger. I didn't think there was a heck of a lot of difference between Mikuni and DJ mains except for the intervals used and the fact that the DJ's look like the small round Mikunis instead of the large round Mikuni that was in mine originally. We'll know soon. I did not further adjust my idle mixture. I seem to have gotten mine stuck in the far counterclockwise position (and it took less than 2 turns from full clockwise). Anyway, when I've tried to turn it clockwise again, the brass head is stripping. I need to find some solution for this at some point but at present it's just stuck. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 11/01/04 at 08:06:02 Darn :-/ |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 11/02/04 at 05:56:34 Oh, just as an addendum since we have made some note as to the value (or lack thereof) in purchasing a DJ kit or not... Other than an adjustable needle, 5 main jets (138-146), a drill bit and a sheetmetal screw, the kit contains a coupon/certificate for a free Dyno run. I don't know what that's worth, but it's included. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 11/02/04 at 06:13:33 That is a plus. Is there a face value on the coupon? Maybe they can adjust your carb too. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 11/02/04 at 12:48:50 I'd have to look at it later but I don't recall any specific value... just a free dyno run. So far as the carb goes, if I am unable to get the mixture screw to work, I just picked up a used carb on eBay (it hasn't arrived yet) that could probably be used to correct this. It was difficult to see the exact condition of the carb (though it only looked to be a bit dirty) but I got it for $55, so I'm hoping I did okay on the deal. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 11/04/04 at 05:43:29 I'm expecting my new Mikuni mains any day now but I did get a chance to ride in to work this morning and noticed after I arrived that I have a very brief puff of black smoke visible at the start of any throttling (from idle). I also noticed some exhaust leakage (small amount of soot) at the juncture of the header pipe and muffler. Any suggestions on what should be used to help seal the exhaust leak? What would be the first thing you'd play with regarding the black smoke... the needle valve adjustment or the idle mixture screw? I'm thinking the needle valve but would like some opinions. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by cphilip on 11/04/04 at 08:15:57 Savage_Rob wrote:
Had the same thing. repeated tightening and finaly tightening with Air wrench did it. Have to colapse that collar around the muffler neck till it conforms to the pipe. Takes quite a bit of crunching to do it. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 11/04/04 at 08:20:35 Can do. I just didn't know if there was some sort of heat-resistant tape or some sort of gasket material folks usually use between the two to enhance the seal. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by cphilip on 11/04/04 at 08:36:27 I thought about that too. If it had not cleared up I was going that route... but seems it has. At least seems like it or noticably better and close to it.... Normaly on these old Vespa's I do the exhaust leaks a tad early on and then fills in with gunk and seals. But those are not chrome so its not an issue to worry about it. But I think that last real tightening I did with the air wrench got mine. Seemed to anyway. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 11/13/04 at 10:38:15 Whew! This thread sat dormant for a while. I had some difficulty procuring new mains to play with but finaly got a few (some from my local HD dealer). Overall now, I have the DJ needle with the clip on the 4th notch and the white spacer installed - also using a Mikuni 155 main jet. I am using a K&N direct replacement air filter and a MAC muffler. Now I just have to record the MAC. |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Greg_650 on 11/14/04 at 03:19:03 Savage_Rob wrote:
AND the sound from your recording is great. The Mac sounds like a cross between the Trapp and Raask. AND what I noticed (or didn't notice) in the sound clip was there wasn't any popping sound. So your combination of needle positions and main jet seems to be a good choice. Way to go Popeye 8) |
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Title: Re: Removed the white spacer, what else? Post by Savage_Rob on 11/14/04 at 16:32:54 Thanks Greg. She has no visible smoke now either; there was a small amount of black smoke when the clip was on the needle's 5th notch. I know these various settings are dependent upon the particular intake/exhaust combinations but I think I'm close to the right mix now. While I don't generally care for "trial and error" troubleshooting, I do enjoy the "tinker and test ride" method on my bike. |
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