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Message started by LUPUS0801 on 09/09/04 at 04:58:12

Title: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by LUPUS0801 on 09/09/04 at 04:58:12

Hi LS-Drivers,

have a look to the german savage forum via www.ls650.de -> forum

or direct:

http://www.ls650.de/forum/main/YaBB.cgi

It ist full in german language. But many people can talk and understand english.

And if there are enough english speaking people we will open international rooms too and make the navigation switchable between english and german

Btw:

Translator wanted for techical projectdocumentation from german to english. It is a electric circuit to prevent the backlash of the LS-motor when switching off the engine. This backlash is often crashing the starting mechanics.

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Greg_650 on 09/09/04 at 05:45:48

You certainly speak better English, than my German.

Danke.

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by LUPUS0801 on 09/09/04 at 08:32:36

thanks :) :) :)

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Mr 650 on 09/09/04 at 09:02:07

I do not speak mucho german, but I always wanted to do a tour of Germany that ended each day w/ a different local beer(s). Now they got that Chunnel, so when we tried all the German brews, we could ride our Savages over to Great Britain and do the same tour there.
We would wind up north to Orkney http://www.orkneybrewery.co.uk/products.htm and get some fresh Skull Splitters there, then ferry on to the land O' Guinness
Let's go!:) :) :)

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Greg_650 on 09/09/04 at 09:45:54

Mr 650 wrote:

And don't forget the Haufbrauhaus in Munich....here's a Weisbier to you, too. 8)

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by LUPUS0801 on 09/09/04 at 10:05:31

Hi,

if you drive in Southgermany between Munic and Stuttgart I will give you some goof adresses of "beerhouses"

Best will be to ask in www.ls650.de direct. There are some hundred Savagedrivers vom South to North where you can make stops or ask for good locations to eat, drink and sleep.

Most drivers are "mapped" in the drivermap of the Forum.

DLzG
Wolfgang

Question: In germany bikers great with the left hand. Therefore "DLzG". "D"ie "L"inke "z"um "G"russ. Means: The left for greeting.

How do you do?

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Greg_650 on 09/09/04 at 10:27:39

We also greet, when riding, with our left hand too.

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Susan on 09/09/04 at 10:30:57

LUPUS0801 wrote:

Looks like a nice forum. Unfortunately I do not speak German. French, a little Italian, a little Spanish, a little Russian, a little Arabic but no German.

P.S. What do you mean by "stop the backlash"? I am sorry to say I don't understand what you mean...

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by LUPUS0801 on 09/09/04 at 11:09:00

Hi Susan

>Looks like a nice forum. Unfortunately I do not speak

Same like this - but personalized with many features.

>German. French, a little Italian, a little Spanish, a little
>Russian, a little Arabic but no German.

It doesn't matter. There are many people with good english. And some french and other languages. The forumsoftware self will be selectable german/english in a few days.

>P.S. What do you mean by "stop the backlash"? I am
>sorry to say I don't understand what you mean...

If you switch of the engine the motor can not do the very last turn and turns a little backwards. This works aganist the "freerun-gears" (i don't know the correct word) of the startermotor. "Wrommmm". An this crashes many gears, starters and motorcovers. You hear this terrible noise often when you stop the engine. Newer american models of the savage habe a "stronger" material in this part oft the motor. But the same problem.

To stop this "backlash" i designed a little and simple electric circuit to open the dekompressionvalve for a little moment when the engine stops. In the same short manner when the motor is startet. And the motor does not turn backwards in the last round.

See: http://savagedriver.tripod.com/

or the german thread under:

http://www.ls650.de/forum/main/YaBB.cgi?board=ID-Technik-Elektrik;action=display;num=1091812226

This is the complete description in german. And i search somebody to translate it in a better english than mine is.

Not the complete thread, only the tripod-page or part of it. And eventually some additions.

Have a look to the pictue (click on it) - an you see some damaged tooth.

tlfg
Wolfgang

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by PerrydaSavage on 09/10/04 at 01:03:37

I am very interested in this "backlash" thing, it's potential problem and it's cure ... maybe the translation from german could be posted on thsi thread?
I've noticed ever since I got my '03 LS650 that when either using the kickstand or kill-switch to turn off the engine, there a second of whining after the engine stops, like something still spinning ... is this the so-called "backlash"?
Funny, I've never heard of it before, nor have I seen/heard of anyone complain of this potential problem on any of the other Savage Forums?

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Mr 650 on 09/10/04 at 01:39:41

Interesting,
Have I missed something ?
I do get the occasional shut-off "fart" if the motor is well heated.
Never noticed the starter kicking back, but would bet it hammers the bendix if'n it does.
About a 1.5 sec off delay from the ignition to the compression release should fix it (?)
I remember the 70's leaned-out carbs "running backward" onshut-off.
Sounds like the starter drive is ratcheting after "motor run-on", like the old 70's auto carbs used to do
(review Uncle Buck movie).
If she spins backwards the euro version must be snagging the starter drive?
This is the 1st complaint I have seen.
Is the euro Savage different or the is USA version different?? compression ratio? Gasoline? Any likewise Kalifornia probs?

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by LUPUS0801 on 09/10/04 at 01:58:08

Hi,

>I am very interested in this "backlash" thing, it's potential
>problem and it's cure ... maybe the translation from
>german could be posted on thsi thread?

We had a complete very long thread in my german forum. This is a very long story. An the result ist the "Antiklack"-Thread. The original first discussion thread is no longer available. I have deleted it by error instead of "moving" to the archive.

We had a member namend Norbert who is a mechanican and had repaired many "broken" motorstartingmechanics. This problem is very well known in Germany. Even discussed in newsgroup: de.rec.motorrad

Even Suzuki knows. But they do nothing to stop the backlash. Only that newer USA-models have some modified parts to minimize the damages.

It would be very easy to change the little startcontrolbox to the same that my external elektik now does.The box has the wiring, the relais, timers and so on. But only works when starting the engine. If it would work 1 second even when stopping the motor we would have no problems.

>I've noticed ever since I got my '03 LS650 that when
>either using the kickstand or kill-switch to turn off the
>engine, there a second of whining after the engine stops,
> like something still spinning ... is this the so-called
>"backlash"?

Yes - i heard it seven years and did not think about. Until i heave heard of broken gears and damaged Motorcovers!

The startingmotor is fixed coupled over a "freerun"-clutch direct to the motor. Like the pedals of a simple bicycle to the rear wheel. If the wheel ist faster than the pedals nothing happens. The pedals can stop. The wheel is running. But when the wheel turns back, the pedals go backwards!

After starting the engine the startermotor stops When the engine is stopping and turns back up to one half turn or more, this "freerun"-clutch connects suddenly with a hard crash because the startermotor ist standing and has to be accelerated.

Than Norbert had the idea to open the decrompessionvalve when stopping the engine. No compression > no backlash. Easy!

And i did the elektric. Very simple. The "control" takes the last "Volts" from the generator "after" swiching off the ignition. The coil of the decompressionmagnet works for about 0,5 to 1 second after the last turn of the Motor. The time is depending on the relais and the capacitor.

>Funny, I've never heard of it before, nor have I
>seen/heard of anyone complain of this potential problem
>on any of the other Savage Forums?

I have seen many fotos of broken gears an broken sidecovers of the motor. There breaks out a whole for the startingmotor-axle. This part of the covert is stronger now in the newer USA-models.

But the backlashing power is still working againts the gears and tooth.

Ok - there is a complete story in german how to build the "antiklack" on the tripod side.

http://savagedriver.tripod.com

Is there somebody to translate this together with me? And than we can put a new englisch story in this forum here or in my german forum? Or on a tripod page.

In germany i sell complete materalkits or complete kits ready for installing. Not as business - only for selfcosts.

I don't want do to this outside of europe.

I think that here are enough people who can do the same for friends. I will help for the first steps.

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Greg_650 on 09/10/04 at 03:41:16

Mr 650 wrote:

This is the problem that he is discussing. It basically occurs just as the engine approaches TDC on the compression stroke, simultaneously with the engine ignition going off. The "red" arrows show the normal rotation of the engine and starter gears. After the engine starts, the starter gears just "idle" on the starter clutch.

The "Backlash" is shown in the "yellow". This happens if the piston sort of "bounces" backwards when the ignition is turned off. But because the starter clutch engages in that direction, the force is transmitted through all these gears that don't turn (all the reduction ratios to the starter)

This is also something that wouldn't happen in a multi-cylinder engine because of inertial forces exerted from the other pistons.

It doesn't do it all the time, but I think his idea of a compression release at that moment is very good.

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/215/215131/folders/156030/1224693Rotor01-1web1.jpg

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by PerrydaSavage on 09/10/04 at 07:21:57

If this is such a problem on Canadian and US spec LS650's, then how come I've never seen/heard anyone complain of eventual malfunction on any of the internet Savage forums? ... and there are some pretty high-milage and aged Savages out there!
Since my Canadian spec Savage "whirr's" for a second most times that I shut her off, is this something I should be concerned about?
PS, I'm an "electrical moron", so rigging up this gizmo to keep the decompression valve open during shut-down is beyond me for sure ...

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Greg_650 on 09/10/04 at 09:11:16

PerrydaSavage wrote:

First of all, I only tried to explain the concept of the "backlash" because I understand what he's saying. But I haven't really noticed it on mine either, nor have I heard of it happening to others. I almost wonder if it couldn't have something to do with ignition timing and maybe different grades of gasoline.

The electrical aspect is pretty simple because it is more or less just the reverse of what happens when we start the engine normally...that little black box above the carb does it all automatically. Considering that some older dirt bikes used to have a decompression lever, it also wouldn't be too hard to incorporate a kill switch with the lever and do it that way, too.

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Jon on 09/10/04 at 11:21:02

> But I haven't really noticed it on mine either, nor
> have I heard of it happening to others.

Greg, the '88 did the starter churn almost every time I shut it off. It sounded like the starter had not fully disengaged when the bike was started and then finally released when the fire went out. The '96 did it occasionally, and it doesn't seem to be present at all with the 40. Maybe Suz sorted it out. I've the S40 shop manual on back order and will investigate any changes. When the dealer gets the S40 parts fiche, I'll snoop there a bit, too.

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Mr 650 on 09/10/04 at 12:19:46

Greg_650 wrote:

I almost wonder if it couldn't have something to do with ignition timing and maybe different grades of gasoline.

Seems like I read euro gas varies from U.S. spec gas.
I have noticed our summer reciepe oxygenated gas seems to backfire more.

I remember 70's car's idle solinoid that would energize w/ ignition circuit then, on shut off, would spring-return away from the idle stop screw, closing the thottle plate compleatly and was supposed to kill the run-on.
The compression release is a much better fix.

I wonder perhaps if the idle is set to high and aggrevates this 'backlash'?

I seem to have had heard this backlash once while the bike was new to me.
Now in order to prevent bluing/excessive heat while in traffic, I tend to idle my stock Suzy down after a mile or 2, blip it and listen a couple times while waiting for a traffic light to change. I will set it as low as it will go and still run. This will require the throttle be bliped on decel to prevent it from dieing while rolling up to a light w/clutch in and that the idle adjuster up 1/2 turn when cold starting too. backfires are less common,but it's summer and I expect them to increase w/ cooler weather. I pulled the idle brass plug long ago and tend to keep the mixture screw a little fat to help w/ backfires.
BTW; On occasion, it seems to idle faster so I slow it, then it may be too slow @ the next light and I put it back.
I will blip it and quickly & completely open my rt. hand and let it snap back to idle stop, then push the throttle shaft against the idle stop to check if the return spring is closing all the way. It never slows down, so it seems to always be fully returning, yet idle speed tend to vary sometimes. I guess it's just engine temp vs. weather/air density.

I have not noticed the backlash problem since I tend to keep the idle down.
It seems like this may help prevent that problem?

P.S. Nice diagram there general. I see you have been promoted to 5-stars. ;)

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Greg_650 on 09/10/04 at 13:08:44

Jon wrote:

Yeah, but I don't know if the starter "churning" is the issue. That sound I have heard. It's the "basklash" sound that would be a hard knock. That's what I tried to explain above. The starter is "clutched" to turn the rotor in only one direction. When the engine fires and the speed exceeds the starter speed, then the clutch remains stationary (on the back of the spinning rotor). The hard knock would come IF the rotor tried to turn backwards because the crankshaft tried to turn backwards....that would force the starter drives in reverse, and trust me, they won't move much and there would be a potential for damage

The churning sound, might just come from the engine making one more revolution forward, not backward.

I'm just theorizing, because I've "played" with these parts. Look close at that picture. Just imagine that when the engine is running ONLY the rotor is spinning (big red arrow). All the other gears are as stationary as in that picture :-/

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Jon on 09/10/04 at 15:23:40

> The hard knock would come IF the rotor tried to turn
> backwards because the crankshaft tried to turn
> backwards....that would force the starter drives in
>reverse...

The piston approaching TDC without spark could fall back down and cause the crank to spin backwards which would lock the starter's one-way clutch and spin the starter backwards. Done enough, it would certainly peel gear teeth.

The noise from the '88 was that of the starter spinning, then as the crank stopped a clunk like the one-way had finally disengaged.

There is something very odd, but very good, about my S40 which may be related to all of this... It always seems to start without cranking a full revolution. It's almost like the engine previously stopped with the piston approaching TDC with a compressed charge (and does not spin backward). Then, tapping the starter button moves the piston a few degrees toward top and ignites the mix. I've never had any bike appear to 'instant start' like this. Whatever is going on, the starter doesn't seem to churn on shut-down.

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Kropatchek on 09/10/04 at 16:14:53

The reason why most of the USA riders have not heard of the problem: In 1996 the idle gears were changed, the second idle gear ( as from the startermotor) is now called a "limiter". Suzuki did improve the starting circuit. For those interested check out ronayers.com microfiches for the Savage and compare the years 1996 with previous years.
@Lupus0801 ( Wolffgang) I understand your german explanation on the German forum and I'm willing to translate.
Greetz
Kropatchek

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Greg_650 on 09/11/04 at 02:27:42

Kropatchek wrote:

And Mr. Kropachek wins! He is very right. Actually it looks like both of these gears have been changed, while the rotor and clutch stayed the same. The gears in my photo are the same as the ones in 1996.

Now the question...are these gears interchangeable? Were the cases or anything else changed?

This photo belongs in the other topic.
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/215/215131/folders/156030/1226034Startergears1web.jpg

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Kropatchek on 09/12/04 at 02:56:01

Thanks Greg, whish I could compose pictures like the one you made.

Now the question...are these gears interchangeable? Were the cases or anything else changed?

A: Yes, if you replace the alternator cover at the same time, has a different partnumber.

Greetz
kropatchek

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by LUPUS0801 on 09/12/04 at 03:09:59

Kropatchek wrote:

Hi,

sorry for long time not answering. I had to do some other things. But i read this thread now. Very interetsing. I don't understand all words. But i understand the things.

Its nice that you want to help translating. I think we do next steps via mail. I found very good explanations for the problems here. I think we put all infos togehter in a "box" .

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Kropatchek on 09/12/04 at 03:16:47

@LUPUS0801 wrote
Its nice that you want to help translating. I think we do next steps via mail. I found very good explanations for the problems here. I think we put all infos togehter in a "box" .

Sent me the text you like to have translated
LHzG
Kropatchek

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by LUPUS0801 on 09/12/04 at 03:21:58

Kropatchek wrote:

Hi,

Ok - on way to prevent tooth-"crashes" ist to change the gears and the motorcover. Costs?

The other way ist do add the little elektric for about 15 EUR. Nearly the same in Dollars. All parts are available in a good electronikshop. Simple connection with 5 wires.

To finish an installable Kit like on the Photo from single Parts i need about 45 Minutes. Detailed Buildingscript is available.

Installation ist done in 10 Minutes (without time for replacing tank and seat)

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by Greg_650 on 09/12/04 at 03:25:31

I wonder if the differences in the covers is just end clearance for the starter gear shafts?

The reason I ask, is because of the little washer #2 shown in the 1996 fiche. When I first pulled these cases, I encountered the first time that my SSM failed to give me the correct info. In that, the manual didn't explain where those washers go. What happens is that one of the washers will invariably stick to the oily case when you remove it, and then it will fall off the case to leave you wondering where it goes.

This happened to me in 2001 and during reassembly I figured that each shaft (#1 and #3) needed a spacer (or shim) for each gear. Not so. What happened was that it was too tight on the shaft for gear #3, and when I went to start the engine, I was really surprised. The starter was bound and could not turn. So off comes the case (which ruined a new gasket) and I put it on the other shaft.

I then made a notation in my manual ::)

Title: Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Post by LUPUS0801 on 09/12/04 at 03:46:00

Kropatchek wrote:

Ok,

i will work a little bit on the text and mail it to you. Together with the buildingscript. You than can add infos from this thread if you want.

Please wait a few days. I have many work with germans "Mondaydemonstrations"