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Message started by Watnys on 08/14/04 at 18:19:07

Title: Oil viscosity
Post by Watnys on 08/14/04 at 18:19:07

What viscosity oil do you all use?
I know that the M.O.M. recommends 10w-40, but I am considering a synthetic 20w-50 to keep my engine cooler in this Texas heat and the DFW stop and go traffic. I noticed that my exhaust pipe is discoloring at the elbow into a deep gold almost purple. I know that some discolorization is normal, but I feel that this one is a little premature (2000miles on odometer) and is probably the result of overheating. BTW I checked the plug -good color there, not running rich; stock exhaust and main jets. I can only assume that maybe a lower viscosity oil was put in there like a 10w-30 or lower. My concern is how the oil film thickness of a higher viscosity oil may effect a Savage. I have heard the following:

“It is best to use the lowest viscosity possible which will provide the proper separation of metal. Anything more than this will increase power loss due to friction and will reduce the pumpability of the oil at all temperatures. If clearances are tight and very little lugging occurs use 5w30 or 10w30. Also lower viscosity oil will flow better and lubricate the engine more quickly at start-up. If ambient temperatures will regularly climb over 100deg F, then use 10w-40. If the engine is air-cooled, or if the engine is older and has greater bearing and ring clearances, then use 20w-50 since it will develop a thicker oil film. However 20w-50 is not recommended for street use in production engines that see sustained oil temperatures below 225°F.”

The way I understand this is that with higher viscosity oils, the thicker oil film will not be able to ”squeeze itself “ between metal parts were the most friction occurs as well as a 10w-30, but it is good for higher temperatures.
What temperature ranges do our Savages run in?
I don’t think that the Savage has as tight clearances as say some high RPM sport bikes, and the loss of power may not be an issue, but for those of you that have used 20w-50: Have you witnessed any power loss?

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by Mr 650 on 08/14/04 at 22:59:54

I am running the Mobil1 15W-50. i have not noticed any loss of power. There may be better oils out there but Mobil 1 is a very good one and should increase engine life of an air cooled motor. I broke in the motor w/ regular 10-40. and changed to synthetic for 3rd oil change. My 650 used a little oil for the 1st 2000 miles but seems to have used none w/ the last change using Mobil1, (I may have added a squirt once). It gets fairly hot here in W. TN, N.Mississippi and feel better about the heavier oil this time of year. I have considered blending 1 qt 15W-50 w/ a lighter Mobil1 for cooler weather.

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by wrench on 08/14/04 at 23:17:21

> The way I understand this is that with higher viscosity
> oils, the thicker oil film will not be able to ”squeeze
> itself “ between metal parts.....as a 10w-30

Higher viscosity oils may not move around well enough for a 14K rpm sport bike, but I would not be too concerned about flow with these slow turning, ball bearing thumpers.

> I don’t think that the Savage has as tight clearances
> as say some high RPM sport bikes

Air cooled engines do have slightly lower piston/cylinder tolerances than regulated-temp H20 engines to allow for a wider expansion and contraction range.

> 20w-50: Have you witnessed any power loss?

I doubt you'll sense power loss from a 20w-50 in a 650 single. A straight 50w might slow acceleration a bit, though.

Use a wide-range synthetic like Mobil-1 15w-50 and the engine will rev easier, shift smoother, and run a little quieter.

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by Greg_650 on 08/15/04 at 04:46:45

OMG, this topic is always a hot one.... :o

At this risk of stirring the oil pot, I will suggest that you not use synthetic oil until your motor is thoroughly broken in, and it really isn't at just 2000 miles. Why? 'Cause I did.

What I experienced using Mobil 1, was piston blow-by and clutch slippage. Each one is a different result from the synthetic oil. The improved lubrication of the oil prevented my rings from really seating before the engine was broken in. I have a picture of my piston to prove it. And I suspect that the clutch slippage was due to certain (silicone?) additives in the oil. Others have argued both of these points with me, but not being a chemist, I only know what I observed....and I always drop it after that.

I believe that synthetic is great, but the oil should be a motorcycle specific oil to ensure that it is compatible with a wet clutch. Now that my engine is well broken in, I'm considering that path again, but I have been using only Suzuki 20-50 since 2002.

As for the discolored pipe...your Texas heat is combining with the lean burning condition of the engine, and especially if you spend a lot of time in traffic, that is what is causing the discoloration. As you noted, your plug is clean. You are definitely not running rich. This has nothing really to do with the oil viscosity (not much anyway). I suggest that you run right down to the dealer and get a #152 main jet and raise your jet needle just a bit with a different spacer. It is fuel burning and cooling that has caused that problem....IMHO ::)

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by Watnys on 08/15/04 at 07:14:59

Good info.
I’ll hold off on the synthetic till later, but how much later?
At what mileage is the engine fully broken-in and the rings seated?
What do you all think about the statement of not using 20w-50 in engines that do not reach at least 225degF?
Does the Savage reach that temperature?
As always, thanks for all your good input :)

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/15/04 at 08:51:36

If you insist on using car oil get API SG or earlier, otherwise get a motorcycle specifc oil. ;)

Clive W

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/15/04 at 08:56:00

SH and later car oils have additives to help economy and emmisions, that don't agree with 'bike engines.

Clive W

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by wrench on 08/15/04 at 09:53:46

> What I experienced using Mobil 1, was piston blow-by

You may find, at the next tear down, that you still have blow-by because these engines tend to normally do that, especially at higher revs.

> .... and clutch slippage.

Mobil-1 15w-50 is slippery enough to cure the judders from a grabby clutch, but otherwise hasn't proven to cause clutch slippage under load. It's probably the only remaining synthetic car oil that is compatible with motorcycle wet-clutches. The other 'Energy Conserving' oils will make the plates slip.

> The improved lubrication of the oil prevented my rings
> from really seating before the engine was broken in.

Ride it harder. This big bore needs to work during break-in. Just be sure to follow a load with a cooling cycle.

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by gitarzan on 08/15/04 at 15:18:02

Quote:

Mobil-1 15w-50 is slippery enough to cure the judders from a grabby clutch, but otherwise hasn't proven to cause clutch slippage under load. It's probably the only remaining synthetic car oil that is compatible with motorcycle wet-clutches.

Au contraire mon frere, I used it for about 14 days and the clutch did slip. I could be idling along in 1st and the bike would be going slower and slower while the revs would be slowly going higher and higher and higher... It was an odd sensation the first time I noticed it.

???

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by wrench on 08/15/04 at 16:47:53

> Au contraire mon frere, I used it for about 14 days
> and the clutch did slip.

Not at all the norm. How many miles on the bike/clutch? Was it adjusted properly?

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by Greg_650 on 08/16/04 at 02:21:10

gitarzan wrote:

I noticed it when releasing the clutch under a load such as going up a hill. After I switched back, it stopped. I'll try a motorcycle specific synthetic next time.

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/16/04 at 07:13:14

I think You'll find motorcycle specific synthetics are API SG or earlier.

Clive W :D

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by Mr 650 on 08/17/04 at 11:06:23

The rule of thumb for Mobil 1 is the red cap stuff does not have the same friction modifiers in it as the green cap stuff. Many have complained about slippage w/ green caps stuff.
Also the stock exhaust is quite restrictive. If you have replaced the pipe and re-jetted there is a good 20% power increase to be had.
Just like when I added the Denco heads and chambers to my old triple, it had not had an easy life and the hop-up ran through the clutch, (non-synthetic oil) but it needed to be slipped more than a tractor-like LS650.
This will heat the whole pack up and kill the springs if you really dog it at test and tune night.
I would expect you might experience slippage sooner rather than later if the bike has been re-piped and re-jetted. How/where you ride, how much power and how many miles all figure in, before you pour in the Synthetics. If it is a problem, swap back to no-synth. and/or start checking places like Barnett for stiffer springs if the discs & floaters are all OK. An inventive guy might just find some thin washers to shim his stock springs, watch out for coil bind though. I would not let a set of springs keep me from using synethics. Also Mobile 1 now has a 20W-50 V-twin and 10W-40 motorcycle oils check it at their site;
http://www.mobil1.com/motorcycle/index.jsp

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by Greg_650 on 08/17/04 at 12:57:10

I have new filters, so it's about time to try it. I didn't know about the red and green cap...just never paid attention.

I have Barnett plates, but when I ordered the springs, they were backordered forever and eventually cancelled :-[

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by Mr 650 on 08/19/04 at 20:23:24

Think you dealer would let you rumage around and compare your stockers to something from other/larger Suzys?

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by Greg_650 on 08/20/04 at 10:22:06

klx650sm2002 wrote:

I think You'll find motorcycle specific synthetics are API SG or earlier.

Clive W :D

I read an add for Castrol synthetic specifically for motorcycles yesterday, too.

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by Mr 650 on 08/22/04 at 08:53:03

Red cap Mobile 1 does not have the fuel economy additives that the green cap stuff has that will cause clutch slip. I remember checking this out, but don't recall the all the service ratings. The SG and earlier is the red cap w/o the fuel economy stamp.

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by Savage_Rob on 08/29/04 at 07:34:32

Well, I decided to experiment with a synthetic. The one I chose is the Maxum 4 Extra 100% Synthetic 15W50.

About the best gallon price I've seen is here: http://www.motodepot.com/accessories/oil/Maxima/maxima_4t.html.

I'll let y'all know if I have any clutch slippage.

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by Mr 650 on 08/29/04 at 11:53:56

Savage_Rob wrote:

I'll let y'all know if I have any clutch slippage.

FYI; I ran across this while looking for parts.
IF you do get some slippage check this:
LS650 clutch springs are listed.
Love this kind of listing. Notice it shows all the part #s for the bikes at once. Great for cross refencing and gives a clue to finding other parts that might work w/ the LS.
The CSK26 CLUTCH SPRING KIT is also shown
to fit these;

GSX600 FJ/FK/FL/FM Katana
GR650 D/XD
GS700 EF/ESF
GV700 GLFG/GLF2
VS700 GLF/GLP/GLEF/GLEP/GLEG/GLEH
GS750 ED/ESD *Both my bikes take same part#, COOL! :)
GSX-R750 G/H
VS750 GLPJ/GLPK/GLPL/GLPM
VS800 Intruder
GSXR1100 G/H/J
GV1400 GDG/GTG/GCG/GDH/GTH/GCH/GDJ

"CSK SPRING KITS
Always fit new springs which get tired after miles of heat and use. EBC spring kits are 10% stiffer than standard and are sold in engine sets. As stated in general fitting/safety instructions, advise customers that lever will feel slightly heavier when uprating springs, and to test ride to acquaint themselves with the change in control." http://www.motorcycleguy.com/the_shop.htm

Title: Re: Oil viscosity
Post by bigdan on 08/29/04 at 15:47:08

the suzi had 8k+ miles when i picked it up. 1st thing i did was change oil to mobile 1 15-50. works fine. i do have the regular oil drip tho. i'm gonna replace the plug this winter.

as a side note, i use ful synth in both my valkyries, but use dinosaur oil in the '74 CB360. synth in an old motor will find all the little paths to the outside world, clean 'em out & leak!